Ravnica and Phyrexians.

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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

It's been blatantly obvious for a while now that Old Phyrexia had contact with Ravnica in some way, lots of little things in the cards that seem to hint at it, but there is one glaring piece of evidence that has been staring us in the face since the first Ravnica block:

There are Thrulls on Ravnica.

I'll break it down chronologically:

Thrulls were originally created (as far as we know) by the Ebon Hand, a religious cult in Sarpadia that had frequent contact with Phyrexia (Tourach's gate, Ebon Praetor), they were created by a combination of alchemy and necromancy to create something that was neither alive, dead, or undead, and that could serve as sacrifices in their their ceremonies.

Thrull's later appeared on Phyrexia when Urza visited the plane (Blood Vassal), which was *after* the Ice Age. This is significant because Urza was literally frozen for the entire thing, only remaining alive due to his spark(s). The Urza block story goes out of its way to mention this so as to explain his absence during the Ice Age.

Then later, the Thrulls again reappear on Rath during tempest block (Blood Pet, Morgue Thrull, and Thrull Surgeon). Chronologically this is a fair bit after their previous appearance. Rath was an artificial plane created by the Phyrexian's as a staging ground for their upcoming invasion of Dominaria, and while they weren't present during the Invasion itself, it is pretty safe to say that they were by this point intrinsically linked to Phyrexia.

Jump forward a couple of hundred years to our first visit to Ravnica, surprise, several new thrulls made their appearance. One in the Rakdos guild (Rakdos Ickspitter), and four in the Orzhov guild (Ostiary Thrull, Mourning Thrull, Exhumer Thrull, and Absolver Thrull), they have absolutely zero reason to be on the plane. They are an artificial species created by the Order of the Ebon hand with input from Phyrexia. There is at the time no reason given to why they are suddenly there and in numbers. Not only that, several of them have several visual cues that connect them to the Morgue Thrull in appearance. Coincidence? I think not.

Then when we get back to Ravnica it gets even more blatant, we get five more Thrulls in the set, all associated with the Orzhov. (Thrull Parasite, Treasury Thrull, Dutiful Thrull, Kingpin's Pet, and Maw of the Obzedat). Other than the Treasury Thrull they all look a lot like the Morgue Thrull as mentioned above.

Then in our final visit to Ravnica we get another two Thrulls, Deptors' Transport and Grasping Thrull. Again associated with the Orzhov.

This alone makes me think that at least the Orzhov have had contact with Old Phyrexia, and learned how to create Thrulls from them, with Rakdos somehow either stealing the knowledge, or somehow corrupting some of the Thrulls for their own entertainment (explaining why there is only one Thrull in the Guild so far.)

But wait there is more, there are several unaligned cards in the various Ravnica blocks that reference to darker secrets, Priest of Forgotten Gods is one such card. It specifically mentions that there are older religions at work in Ravnica than the Orzhov guild, and the card itself shows that these traditions are very dark indeed. Now what other religious organization we know of was actively into sacrificing living creatures? The Ebon Hand of course, who worshiped Phyrexia (Well Tourach did anyway). There is also a Praetor lose on Ravnica (Sanguine Praetor), the flavor text of which makes my skin crawl. And then there is the art for Strands of Undeath, that looks a lot more like old style Phyrexia than necromancy to me.

I don't believe in coincidences when it comes to MTG design, the Thrulls where a conscious choice on WotC's part.

My theory is this, before the Invasion, the Phyrexians had contact and influence on many worlds, such as Mercadia (canon, btw), and Ravnica. Which they subtly influenced, the Religious/Familia structure of the Orzhov made them prime targets for infiltration, either by sleeper agents, or with the full knowledge and consent of the Guild's leadership. The Phyrexians taught the Orzhov how to create and breed thrulls, to give the Guild loyal servants. There are still Old Phyrexians on Ravnica, waiting and biding their time for orders that will never come.

And until WotC specifically tells us otherwise, that is what I will continue to believe. It doesn't really change anything, for now...
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

Interesting theory, though I think it has more to do with Ravnica being a historic planeswalker hub. I can't find the article, but at some point Creative confirmed that the unusual biodiversity of Ravnica is due to planeswalkers leaving their summons around after duels. Also, the thrulls themselves, outside of maybe Ickspitter, don't have any Phyrexian markers.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
Interesting theory, though I think it has more to do with Ravnica being a historic planeswalker hub. I can't find the article, but at some point Creative confirmed that the unusual biodiversity of Ravnica is due to planeswalkers leaving their summons around after duels. Also, the thrulls themselves, outside of maybe Ickspitter, don't have any Phyrexian markers.
Pre-mending Phyrexians had access to portal tech that allowed them to move from one plane to another without issue.

Also, besides their appearance, most of the Orzhov thrulls wear golden masks, many of which look like they could be Phyrexian design undergone a couple of hundred of years of design drift.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

Sounds like a stretch to me.

Thrulls are created beings, but that doesn't mean that all Thrulls descend from the same single creator. Serra created angels, but we don't assume that all angels on all planes are a sign of direct contact with Serra's Realm. It's plausible that the Orzhov developed their own Thrulls long ago, and the practice has simply continued. Appearing on Rath is not indicative of an association with Phyrexia, as Rath was populated with myriad creatures brought there from other planes, just as easy for Thrulls to be among them. Morgue Thrull may even be from the Orzhov tradition, given the visual similarities with them, and the extreme divergence from the Ebon Hand thrulls. The only real outliers are the Blood Vassal and the Ickspitter.

I'm also not convinced that the Ebon Praetor is a Phyrexian, or that Tourach's Gate is a Gate to Phyrexia, even if it is a planar portal, not all portals lead to Phyrexia.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
Sounds like a stretch to me.

Thrulls are created beings, but that doesn't mean that all Thrulls descend from the same single creator. Serra created angels, but we don't assume that all angels on all planes are a sign of direct contact with Serra's Realm. It's plausible that the Orzhov developed their own Thrulls long ago, and the practice has simply continued. Appearing on Rath is not indicative of an association with Phyrexia, as Rath was populated with myriad creatures brought there from other planes, just as easy for Thrulls to be among them. Morgue Thrull may even be from the Orzhov tradition, given the visual similarities with them, and the extreme divergence from the Ebon Hand thrulls. The only real outliers are the Blood Vassal and the Ickspitter.

I'm also not convinced that the Ebon Praetor is a Phyrexian, or that Tourach's Gate is a Gate to Phyrexia, even if it is a planar portal, not all portals lead to Phyrexia.
There is one major difference between Angels and Thrulls. Angels are naturally generated mana constructs, same as elementals and (most) demons, Thrulls are entirely artificial, they were created by the Order of the Ebon Hand, spread to Phyrexia, and was widely used by Phyrexia. They have always been associated with the Ebon Hand and Phyrexia. So them showing up in Ravnica naturally leads to a potential connection between the two. And while there is divergence between Ebon Hand Thrulls and those of the Orzhov, most of the the Orzhov thrulls look a lot like Blood Vassal and Morgue Thrull, two *specifically* Phyrexian thrulls. Morgue Thrull in particular looks like most of the Orzhov related thrulls.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
There is one major difference between Angels and Thrulls. Angels are naturally generated mana constructs, same as elementals and (most) demons, Thrulls are entirely artificial, they were created by the Order of the Ebon Hand, spread to Phyrexia, and was widely used by Phyrexia. They have always been associated with the Ebon Hand and Phyrexia. So them showing up in Ravnica naturally leads to a potential connection between the two. And while there is divergence between Ebon Hand Thrulls and those of the Orzhov, most of the the Orzhov thrulls look a lot like Blood Vassal and Morgue Thrull, two *specifically* Phyrexian thrulls. Morgue Thrull in particular looks like most of the Orzhov related thrulls.
Again, the presence of a being on Rath is NOT indicative of it's creation by Phyrexia. Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Slivers, and Kor all appear there as well, and are not assumed to be creations, and were brought there, mostly directly from Dominaria as Rath's growth impinged on Dominaria, but also deliberately and from elsewhere.
Golems and homunculi are also entirely artificial physical constructs, but were created more than once on multiple planes.
I remain skeptical that the Ebon Hand had much contact with Phyrexia. Thrulls plainly escaped and thrived in the wilds on Dominaria, Blood Vassal obviously has mechanical augmentation that is both unlike Ebon Hand thrulls, and unlike Orzhov thrulls, but is similar to the Phyrexian modifications of other abducted beings. Phyrexia may have captured and adopted Thrulls at some point, but I remain skeptical that all Thrulls descend from Tourach's experiments and their presence on other planes is solely a result of Phyrexia bringing them there.

Perhaps Tevesh Szat visited Ravnica and left some Thrulls behind?

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I don't remember exactly where I read it, but I recall reading somewhere that the reason Tourach disappeared was because his gate lead to Phyrexia (and looking at the art, it looks very Phyrexian to me) and they decided to detain him for "questioning".

Either way, we'll probably find out when the Phyrexian update hits Gatherer. If the Ebon Praetor and the Sanguine Praetor turn out to be Phyrexians, then my theory is, by definition, correct.
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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 3 years ago

It's a nice theory but the wiki page about phyrexia doesn't mention anything about thrulls unless I'm mistaking

Nice theory though if thrulls joined the phyrexians

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

CommanderMaster999 wrote:
3 years ago
It's a nice theory but the wiki page about phyrexia doesn't mention anything about thrulls unless I'm mistaking

Nice theory though if thrulls joined the phyrexians
Thrulls were found on Phyrexia in Urza's Saga (Blood Vassal), and then on Rath in Tempest block (Morgue Thrull, Thrull Surgeon, Blood Pet).
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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
CommanderMaster999 wrote:
3 years ago
It's a nice theory but the wiki page about phyrexia doesn't mention anything about thrulls unless I'm mistaking

Nice theory though if thrulls joined the phyrexians
Thrulls were found on Phyrexia in Urza's Saga (Blood Vassal), and then on Rath in Tempest block (Morgue Thrull, Thrull Surgeon, Blood Pet).
Thanks but the Rath page has nothing either on thrulls

I mean I believe you about thrulls have appeared on both phyrexia and rath but by what I'm seeing they may have just visited or been kidnapped by the phyrexians to be test dummies

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

CommanderMaster999 wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
CommanderMaster999 wrote:
3 years ago
It's a nice theory but the wiki page about phyrexia doesn't mention anything about thrulls unless I'm mistaking

Nice theory though if thrulls joined the phyrexians
Thrulls were found on Phyrexia in Urza's Saga (Blood Vassal), and then on Rath in Tempest block (Morgue Thrull, Thrull Surgeon, Blood Pet).
Thanks but the Rath page has nothing either on thrulls

I mean I believe you about thrulls have appeared on both phyrexia and rath but by what I'm seeing they may have just visited or been kidnapped by the phyrexians to be test dummies
Look, all I am saying is that if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, and it sounds like a duck, then it is very likely a friggin' duck. There are no coincidences in design. ;)
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Post by Gelcur » 2 years ago

Thrull info for your perusal, here and here. Also worth mentioning that Thallids were created from Thrulls and also manged to survive.

You can read about it in the classic MTG novel "And Peace Shall Sleep", mine is packed away at the moment. You read a review/summary here.

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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 2 years ago

Anyway

The phyrexian errata wave hit when modern horizons 2 came out the ravnica thrulls didn't get hit by the wave so they aren't phyrexian didn't invade ravnica

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Post by Sporegorger_Dragon » 2 years ago

I don't think the presence of thrulls on any plane necessarily indicates some sort of link with Phyrexia or information derived from Phyrexian.

"Thrull" is just a designation of a type of magical creature, and I'd imagine multiple planes/disciplines could independently come up with a living magical being derived from dead corpses.

Like how "homunculus" is a magical being, and their presence on Ravnica, Innistrad and Alara doesn't necessarily indicate a link between them.

So I think Orzhov thrulls were innovated by Orzhov mages independently of any Phyrexia-related origins. Rakdos thrulls are probably derived from Orzhov thrull technology/magicology, either through reverse-engineering (unlikely), stealing thrull tech/knowledge (possible), or Orzhov defectors (most likely).

EDIT: I thought I had already posted this months ago but apparently not.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
I'm also not convinced that the Ebon Praetor is a Phyrexian, or that Tourach's Gate is a Gate to Phyrexia, even if it is a planar portal, not all portals lead to Phyrexia.
sort of agree with this. Have read a bit about Sarpadia on wikis. And from those info, it looks like the Phyrexians attempting to attack Sarpadia.. and being defeated by the thrulls living there was phyrexia first contact with that place.
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Post by MaritLage » 1 year ago

The Orzhov thrulls are from Tourach·s line .
Yes , the Orzhov maintain communication with the "Old" Phyrexians ,
and powers older still than that .
Rebbec alone predates Phyrexia .

Believe me or don·t .

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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 1 year ago

Well I guess it's kind of gonna be correct

"March of the machines" is phyrexians cracking post-mending planar portals

And ravnica is one of the planes hit

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