[IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths- Ebook and Lore

[Zazdor]

Vivien mentions that she met the opposing Planeswalker on Ravnica. I could have sworn Oko sat out the War of the Spark (along with Garruk), but in scrolling through my copy of the Wildered Quest, I cannot find the reference. I thought Oko felt a pull, but chose to stay behind or something? Can anyone help on this point?

[user_938036]

Vivien mentions that she met the opposing Planeswalker on Ravnica. I could have sworn Oko sat out the War of the Spark (along with Garruk), but in scrolling through my copy of the Wildered Quest, I cannot find the reference. I thought Oko felt a pull, but chose to stay behind or something? Can anyone help on this point?

Proving a negative is very difficult but I can say that in my two readings and a text search I couldn't find anything even remotely hinting at the events of War in the wildered quest.

[Zazdor]

Hm. I wonder why I thought that. Not that it quite matters, but my memory (which may be flawed here since no one else has it) is that there was some pull or force that the Planeswalkers (Oko and Garruk) sensed, but that they did not answer it. I believe this happened early on in War of the Spark with characters, but I thought it was repeated in Wildered Quest. Oh well! Maybe Oko did make it to Ravnica then. His startled response to Liliana's name suggests he knows her, but it's too vague as to what he thinks of her. Oko would make for a good option behind the Ozolith if he was present for War, then. I'm still hoping it was Ob Nixilis (especially any connection Ob may have to hedrons/stones from Zendikar).

[onering]

Lili is the sort of person that would cause a startled response at her name just generally. Their plans could have crossed at any point and any plane over the years, and she'd still be the crazy ass necromancer.

[onering]

So I read the book. I mostly liked it as a fun romp with emotional moments. Certianly wasn't the train-wreck that was War for the Spark and its sequel. I would like to warm up to Vivien more, but her quotes from the story on the cards section makes her a hard sell to actually like. I personally believe it was also Oko in the Ozolith until Wizards actually reveals what it was.

I would have liked Ikoria to be expanded on in several sets, like a traditional 3-set structure. Perhaps Lukka shows up on Zendikar and maybe even meets Nissa which would be interesting. Also helping to expand us on his prespective and knowledge of Ikoria when comparing Zendikar.

I found the worldbuilding and art direction of Ikoria fine mostly like a popcorn flick. If it had more sets to grow, it would still be a popcorn flick, but it would have a more fleshed out world to enjoy.

You know what? I think you really hit on something here. Ikoria is the first brand new plane visited in the one set structure. Dominaria had loads of history, so much so that history was the sets theme. We just needed a quick update when we got there, we already had years of worldbuilding. Ravnica had 2 three set blocks already, and got ANOTHER three sets, plus two sets of Amonkhet to set up WAR. Theros 2 was a more limited dive into a part of the plane we didn't really explore in the first 3 set block, plus a little of the rest of the world. Other than that we had a couple core sets. This was the first actual test of the 1 set model, and it failed.

I think there are some lessons that can be learned from this. 1 set just isn't enough to properly introduce a plane, but it is enough to revisit a fully fleshed out plane, or revisit a continent or region of a plane. We've also learned that the 1 set model can work, ironically, as multiple sets on the same plane, from Ravnica. When introducing a new plane, we should spend 2 or 3 sets there, depending on the story being told, though mechanically leaving them each as a standalone large set (like how Ravnica 3.0 was split up) is fine, and helps drafting the sets stay fresh without having to rapidly jump from plane to plane. Perhaps the yearly model going forward should be two large sets to introduce a plane, one large set to revisit a plane, and a core set. It may be possible to introduce a plane in one large set by taking the Theros or early magic approach, focusing merely on a continent or region of the plane and expanding out in future visits. This could allow for future planes that aren't so "world of hats" and more like Dominaria in having multiple cultures and areas that are distinct.

[Gudleikr]

It may be possible to introduce a plane in one large set by taking the Theros or early magic approach, focusing merely on a continent or region of the plane and expanding out in future visits. This could allow for future planes that aren't so "world of hats" and more like Dominaria in having multiple cultures and areas that are distinct.

Small problem with that, they despise that old way of exploring a plane. The world of hats gives off the impression they can't expand the design of a plane beyond the initial presentation. While they try to expand the cosmos to show us all these planes we haven't visited, it ironically makes the worlds feel smaller and more shallow.

For example Innistrad had as a dropped plot point of isles with other skinshifters, instead of werewolves, werebirds or other strange things, of more tribal peoples. A dark jungle horror.

[user_938036]

You know what? I think you really hit on something here. Ikoria is the first brand new plane visited in the one set structure.

I think there are some lessons that can be learned from this. 1 set just isn't enough to properly introduce a plane, but it is enough to revisit a fully fleshed out plane, or revisit a continent or region of a plane.

I won't fault you for the assumption that Ikoria is the first brand new plane featured in only a single set because I had to go and look up the recent sets to know for sure. Though I still need to call this out. Ikoria is the second plane introduced with only one set. Eldraine was the first plane introduced with only a single set and lots of people felt it resonated well.

Ikoria is the first Bottom-up plane with only one set and that means the rest of your post might still be true. As a top-down(flavor first) plane Eldraine already resonated with people before they even saw all of it because it drew from a deep wellspring of familiarity. While Ikoria being Bottom-up(Mechanics first) it doesn't resonate as well and people end up looking for something deeper.

[onering]

You know what? I think you really hit on something here. Ikoria is the first brand new plane visited in the one set structure.

I think there are some lessons that can be learned from this. 1 set just isn't enough to properly introduce a plane, but it is enough to revisit a fully fleshed out plane, or revisit a continent or region of a plane.

I won't fault you for the assumption that Ikoria is the first brand new plane featured in only a single set because I had to go and look up the recent sets to know for sure. Though I still need to call this out. Ikoria is the second plane introduced with only one set. Eldraine was the first plane introduced with only a single set and lots of people felt it resonated well.

Ikoria is the first Bottom-up plane with only one set and that means the rest of your post might still be true. As a top-down(flavor first) plane Eldraine already resonated with people before they even saw all of it because it drew from a deep wellspring of familiarity. While Ikoria being Bottom-up(Mechanics first) it doesn't resonate as well and people end up looking for something deeper.

I forgot about Eldraine (I can't believe I did since it was so recent), but you make a good point about top down vs bottom up.

[onering]

It may be possible to introduce a plane in one large set by taking the Theros or early magic approach, focusing merely on a continent or region of the plane and expanding out in future visits. This could allow for future planes that aren't so "world of hats" and more like Dominaria in having multiple cultures and areas that are distinct.

Small problem with that, they despise that old way of exploring a plane. The world of hats gives off the impression they can't expand the design of a plane beyond the initial presentation. While they try to expand the cosmos to show us all these planes we haven't visited, it ironically makes the worlds feel smaller and more shallow.

For example Innistrad had as a dropped plot point of isles with other skinshifters, instead of werewolves, werebirds or other strange things, of more tribal peoples. A dark jungle horror.

I had Innistrad in mind, as well as Tarkir (its implied that we only have seen a small part of it), Theros (also implied that there are things beyond the sea), Ixalan, and Amonkhet. Planes that are built around themes that can have variations are more approachable one set at a time than planes that are built around a rigid theme. I could easily see taking a trip to the jungle horror part of Innistrad, or another continent in Theros that has Trojan or Roman styles, or another continent in Ixalan to upset the current balance of power, or certainly exploring what lies beyond the wastes in Amonkhet.

[Gudleikr]

It may be possible to introduce a plane in one large set by taking the Theros or early magic approach, focusing merely on a continent or region of the plane and expanding out in future visits. This could allow for future planes that aren't so "world of hats" and more like Dominaria in having multiple cultures and areas that are distinct.

Small problem with that, they despise that old way of exploring a plane. The world of hats gives off the impression they can't expand the design of a plane beyond the initial presentation. While they try to expand the cosmos to show us all these planes we haven't visited, it ironically makes the worlds feel smaller and more shallow.

For example Innistrad had as a dropped plot point of isles with other skinshifters, instead of werewolves, werebirds or other strange things, of more tribal peoples. A dark jungle horror.

I had Innistrad in mind, as well as Tarkir (its implied that we only have seen a small part of it), Theros (also implied that there are things beyond the sea), Ixalan, and Amonkhet. Planes that are built around themes that can have variations are more approachable one set at a time than planes that are built around a rigid theme. I could easily see taking a trip to the jungle horror part of Innistrad, or another continent in Theros that has Trojan or Roman styles, or another continent in Ixalan to upset the current balance of power, or certainly exploring what lies beyond the wastes in Amonkhet.

Exactly, its known that within the wastes of Amonkhet there is actually pockets of life, that not everything is zombies. The city state of Amonkhet worked because the goal was to create a claustrophobic setting where there was always the possibility that the outside could one day enter and end the world.

Kaladesh in my opinion didn't work, as it tried to show snapshots of all these various cities across the plane, but it felt so samey that it instead seemed like one city.

I get the Kaladesh impression from Ikoria as well. We know of the Drannith place, but beyond that feels empty. We are told there are other strongholds like Drannith but Drannith is the only one we really see. The second best is the Skysails yet they are a nomadic people.

[5colorsrainbow]

You know what? I think you really hit on something here. Ikoria is the first brand new plane visited in the one set structure.

I think there are some lessons that can be learned from this. 1 set just isn't enough to properly introduce a plane, but it is enough to revisit a fully fleshed out plane, or revisit a continent or region of a plane.

I won't fault you for the assumption that Ikoria is the first brand new plane featured in only a single set because I had to go and look up the recent sets to know for sure. Though I still need to call this out. Ikoria is the second plane introduced with only one set. Eldraine was the first plane introduced with only a single set and lots of people felt it resonated well.

Ikoria is the first Bottom-up plane with only one set and that means the rest of your post might still be true. As a top-down(flavor first) plane Eldraine already resonated with people before they even saw all of it because it drew from a deep wellspring of familiarity. While Ikoria being Bottom-up(Mechanics first) it doesn't resonate as well and people end up looking for something deeper.

I forgot about Eldraine (I can't believe I did since it was so recent), but you make a good point about top down vs bottom up.

I agree and kinda connects to something I said on salvation. Ikoria mutating monsters and wedge theme lets it stand out but also makes the plane more feels less detailed due to everything blending together. However, all of this comes from likely comes from the bottom up nature of the set wanting these for mechanical reasons and leaving creative to justify the why of it instead of trying to match the mechanics to what the planes flavor wants to be.

Small problem with that, they despise that old way of exploring a plane. The world of hats gives off the impression they can't expand the design of a plane beyond the initial presentation. While they try to expand the cosmos to show us all these planes we haven't visited, it ironically makes the worlds feel smaller and more shallow.

For example Innistrad had as a dropped plot point of isles with other skinshifters, instead of werewolves, werebirds or other strange things, of more tribal peoples. A dark jungle horror.

I had Innistrad in mind, as well as Tarkir (its implied that we only have seen a small part of it), Theros (also implied that there are things beyond the sea), Ixalan, and Amonkhet. Planes that are built around themes that can have variations are more approachable one set at a time than planes that are built around a rigid theme. I could easily see taking a trip to the jungle horror part of Innistrad, or another continent in Theros that has Trojan or Roman styles, or another continent in Ixalan to upset the current balance of power, or certainly exploring what lies beyond the wastes in Amonkhet.

Exactly, its known that within the wastes of Amonkhet there is actually pockets of life, that not everything is zombies. The city state of Amonkhet worked because the goal was to create a claustrophobic setting where there was always the possibility that the outside could one day enter and end the world.

Kaladesh in my opinion didn't work, as it tried to show snapshots of all these various cities across the plane, but it felt so samey that it instead seemed like one city.

I get the Kaladesh impression from Ikoria as well. We know of the Drannith place, but beyond that feels empty. We are told there are other strongholds like Drannith but Drannith is the only one we really see. The second best is the Skysails yet they are a nomadic people.

Well Maro has said they are thinking of doing as such on tumblr AWHILE back, saying they would likely add a region/area akin to Japan on Innistrad to play with J-horror and I'm assuming other places for other types of horror such as your thought on a jungle horror region.

One thing to note nearly if not all the city shots in Kaladesh was in one city. They mentioned they purposely did this as all of the action of the story was set in Ghirapur and the rest of Kaldesh and it felt more in theme to the artifact/steam punk theme. Ravnica is similar as we mostly only seen the main ten districts which has the guildhalls/guildpact hall and has the most interaction between all 10 guilds.

[ilovesaprolings]

I don't know if it's the right thread, but i have a question about Ikoria's lore
Are the apex unique? Or are there more like them, just not as developed/mutated/old as them?
Because it is mentioned that Otrimi may be the juvenile stage of Brokkos' species.
There is a cycle that may also give us the name of their species: all-hunter, forever beast, deathdweller, thunder raptor and wish giver.

[5colorsrainbow]

I don't know if it's the right thread, but i have a question about Ikoria's lore
Are the apex unique? Or are there more like them, just not as developed/mutated/old as them?
Because it is mentioned that Otrimi may be the juvenile stage of Brokkos' species.
There is a cycle that may also give us the name of their species: all-hunter, forever beast, deathdweller, thunder raptor and wish giver.

There seems to be something unique about them, genesis ultimatum hints they aren't just normal monsters, as well as the myths and such seem to suggest intelligence higher than other monster as well. Thats all we know unless they give out more flavor info.

[Zazdor]

One of the confusions, though, is that all monsters seem unique. Vivien mentions this, but the thread isn't followed up with later. There does not seem to be two of any creature. We have categories (cats, nightmares, etc.), but we don't know breeding, hereditary, or evolutionary habits/data for any of the monsters on Ikoria.