New Challenge Idea

[Venedrex]

Hey everyone!

Lately I've been reading about design and the Great Designer Search in particular, and it's given me an idea for a new way for us as custom card designers to get ready for the next GDS. I was thinking, what would be the best way to train for the GDS, and I naturally thought of making an entire custom set. But then I thought, what if instead of making a set as individuals, we made it more like the official way and split anyone who wants to do this into two to three design teams, just like Wotc does.

Of course, this would require there to be interest and willingness of others to participate. If anyone here would like to do something like this, I think making an entire custom set by collaborating on a team would be incredibly useful for GDS preparation, and a really fun way of honing our card creation skills, as well as our ability to work together on a project.

In my mind, we'd assign design leads, who would be the most senior members of the custom card community, so maybe Void-nothing and Slimeytrout could lead two teams, and other veterans could lead more teams if we had enough people who wanted to participate. However, I understand that this would be a big undertaking, and people might not want to do this, so I guess I'm just throwing the idea out there to see if anyone might want to do it. I completely get it if no one wants to take part in my hare-brained scheme, but I figure I should at least suggest it.

If this actually went through, I think it would be an awesome experience to help everyone in custom card design get a feel for the challenges that will no doubt show up in the next GDS, and have some fun in the process. I figure we could sort ourselves into the teams and volunteer for specific positions that fit our respective skill sets. People who love flavor text and lore could be in charge of story and worldbuilding, people who like mechanics and themes could handle draft archetypes and set mechanics, and people with a fondness for individual card design could fill the role of designers or playtesters.

Additionally, each member of a team would vote for the general concept of the set, such as Primitive World, or Ocean World, or Underground World. Once teams were formed and the concept voted on, each group would have anywhere from a year to six months to start working on every aspect of the set. A couple people could find and source art, and the team as a whole would discuss the main parts of the set in threads or on discord, and individual cards could be worked on in threads as well. Basically, I think this could be the best way to get ready for the group exercises of the GDS, and make something really neat in the process, while learning to collaborate with other designers, just like Wizards does.

At the end of the allotted time, I figure we could have a sitewide poll where everyone not involved with the creation of the sets would vote for which one they thought was best, alongside a big discussion thread. Once again, I know this would be a massive effort, and I realize it might be a stupid idea that no one wants to spend their time on. However, I think there is potential with this, and I believe that if people were willing or interested, it could be a fantastic challenge to equip designers who may want to try competing in the GDS.

Thanks for reading my long winded diatribe!

[void_nothing]

I'm sure you're well aware that's a very, very, very ambitious idea.

But hey, that never stopped the Flamingos back in the day.

If this gets more interest, I'd absolutely be in. I can't promise that I'd be able to devote the time and work needed to be a design team lead, or even that I'm the best person for the job, but just seeing someone float something like this warms my heart. It's like the past is flowering all over again - you have no way of knowing this but my history with projects like this goes way, way back to something called Mercadian Memories on MTGNews.

[SecretInfiltrator]

So is this three entirely independent sets or three executions of the same idea or three teams working on different parts of the same set?

I wish the custom card interface would allow for more collaboration on this site, i. e. more than one person able to edit a set. While this is still not available, maybe Team Leads can maintain sets on http://www.magicmultiverse.net/.

This is extremely ambitious. I'm definitely interested in contributing in some kind of capacity. How many active members do we even have these days? Can we afford splitting personnel? I suppose we'll know by the amount of replies this gets. : )

[Krishnath]

It is interesting to say the least. And it could be fun to try.

Edit: If it wasn't clear from my post, I'm in.

[Venedrex]

So is this three entirely independent sets or three executions of the same idea or three teams working on different parts of the same set?

I wish the custom card interface would allow for more collaboration on this site, i. e. more than one person able to edit a set. While this is still not available, maybe Team Leads can maintain sets on http://www.magicmultiverse.net/.

This is extremely ambitious. I'm definitely interested in contributing in some kind of capacity. How many active members do we even have these days? Can we afford splitting personnel? I suppose we'll know by the amount of replies this gets. : )

In my head, it would be two teams competing against each other by making independent sets, with more seperate teams being formed if we got that many people. So for instance, there could be a team of 6-12 working on a primitive world set, and another team of 6-12 who would be the first team's competition working on say, an ocean world set. Of course like you say, getting enough people might not be possible, so we may not be able to pull this off, or we might have to do it on a reduced scale of maybe 4-6 people per team. Worst case scenario we could just have one team and no competition, but then we could still have a final poll from the rest of the community on how well we did.

Your spot on about it being ambitious, and I may have bit off more than I could chew suggesting this. There may not be enough people interested, but if there are, this could really be a lot of fun, and a great low stress way to get a taste of what could be coming in the next GDS. I think each of us might be able to learn a lot from each other about design by doing a challenge like this, and develop some good skills for the future.

[Feyd_Ruin]

/interested

I'm on Void and SecretInfiltrator's team

[Venedrex]

It is interesting to say the least. And it could be fun to try.

Edit: If it wasn't clear from my post, I'm in.

/interested

I'm on Void and SecretInfiltrator's team

Thanks for expressing interest everyone, the more people we get the better.

[dangerousdice]

woop woop! im in!

[Venedrex]

OK, it's still early yet, but it looks like we have about five people who want to do this. Does everyone want to wait in order to see if we can drum up some more recruits, or proceed with who we have. Right now we would probably have to give up on the competition aspect and just do it as one team.

[Legend]

Before creating anything, participants must correctly answer trick questions about obscure, technical rulings; balance & development; Mark Rosewater's opinions; and decades of MTG design evolution. /s

[Feyd_Ruin]

Before creating anything, participants must correctly answer trick questions about obscure, technical rulings; balance & development; Mark Rosewater's opinions; and decades of MTG design evolution. /s

Could Humility be printed as a blue card in modern day magic?


I will participate as much as I am able to, but given my commitments, I shouldn't be counted on for "or the whole thing stalls" kind of aspects.

[Venedrex]

Before creating anything, participants must correctly answer trick questions about obscure, technical rulings; balance & development; Mark Rosewater's opinions; and decades of MTG design evolution. /s

Could Humility be printed as a blue card in modern day magic?


I will participate as much as I am able to, but given my commitments, I shouldn't be counted on for "or the whole thing stalls" kind of aspects.

Oh yeah, no worries. I totally understand that this is a completely volunteer thing and I don't want anyone to feel like they are perpetually obligated. No orzhov syndicate here lol.

I think the best thing to do might be to simply make a catch all thread for this set where everyone who has expressed interest here on being part of the team can chip in with thoughts, ideas or designs as they feel motivated or inspired. Since it looks like were going to just have one team, I figure we can make it a more laid back style of development without time limits or deadlines, and just gradually work on the set over time.

I'll also say that no one should feel like they have to contribute anything. In my book, any help you give is fantastic, and if someone does literally nothing, that's perfectly alright. I'm not paying anyone, so all I can expect from you is whatever you're willing to give. I don't want anyone to feel like this is something they have to do. This is just meant to be a fun challenge like the others that are running right now, and just like them you can drop out or stop participating at any time. If everyone gets too busy or loses interest it's no big deal.

For specific parts of the set, I'd be happy to post polls where each member of the team can vote on which overall direction the set goes, while the bulk of the card designs and discussion could happen on the aforementioned main thread.

[folding_music]

hi :3

Might I make teh recommendation of developing the set through cycles? Instead of having an entire set weighing on yr head at once yr down to five cards at a time, and every time a cycle gets assembled (every active designer could submit an entire cycle, just one card or anything in-between) from among all teh entries yr a step closer to understanding what the set's really about. then once it's more fleshed out, we can nudge out the cards that turn out not to fit as well as they were initially understood to and fill in the gaps more appropriately.

dunno, I might get involved! I normally avoid the games that involve marking someone else's cards but I'd like to see how you'd handle that by demonstration. (the monthly design games get really prescriptive about Correction and Precedent and that drives me up the wall, cos half my favourite cards are ancient things which clearly never went through any such process.)

[Venedrex]

hi :3

Might I make teh recommendation of developing the set through cycles? Instead of having an entire set weighing on yr head at once yr down to five cards at a time, and every time a cycle gets assembled (every active designer could submit an entire cycle, just one card or anything in-between) from among all teh entries yr a step closer to understanding what the set's really about. then once it's more fleshed out, we can nudge out the cards that turn out not to fit as well as they were initially understood to and fill in the gaps more appropriately.

dunno, I might get involved! I normally avoid the games that involve marking someone else's cards but I'd like to see how you'd handle that by demonstration. (the monthly design games get really prescriptive about Correction and Precedent and that drives me up the wall, cos half my favourite cards are ancient things which clearly never went through any such process.)

That's a good idea. I think we can definitely have it set up where people on the team can submit responses to polls and submit small batches of cards when they feel like it.

For the very first get together, I'm thinking about listing all the names of people who have showed interest in the project, and then asking the listed people to come up with three of their favorite ideas for a custom plane/set. Once everyone suggests their favorite three ideas, we can then have a series of polls where the team votes on their favorite ideas that have been put forward.

[Krishnath]

Can't make a set of just cycles. But making cycles is a good idea, they are glue that help keep the set together.

If you haven't done so already, read MaRo's articles on set creation, indeed we all should, if for nothing else to brush up on our knowledge. The design skeleton in particular is a necessary read in my humble opinion, although it is only applicable to commons, it shows how many cards of each color should be creatures and so on. The percentages aren't applicable anymore as the article is several years old, but I think I have the latest percentages either bookmarked or saved somewhere. As we get closer to go time I can find them. (but it is basically, from most creatures to least: White, green, black, red, blue. White has the most enchantments, red has the most sorceries, blue has the most instants.)

We should also probably try to determine what power level we are aiming for.

[Venedrex]

Can't make a set of just cycles. But making cycles is a good idea, they are glue that help keep the set together.

If you haven't done so already, read MaRo's articles on set creation, indeed we all should, if for nothing else to brush up on our knowledge. The design skeleton in particular is a necessary read in my humble opinion, although it is only applicable to commons, it shows how many cards of each color should be creatures and so on. The percentages aren't applicable anymore as the article is several years old, but I think I have the latest percentages either bookmarked or saved somewhere. As we get closer to go time I can find them. (but it is basically, from most creatures to least: White, green, black, red, blue. White has the most enchantments, red has the most sorceries, blue has the most instants.)

We should also probably try to determine what power level we are aiming for.

Absolutely, Maro's articles are super key, and they certainly helped inspire this whole project as well. We do have to make sure we have something like a spreadsheet on excel for card codes to keep track of how many cards are being made for each color, their rarities, and cycles as well. Maybe something on google drive that people on the team could edit?
You make an excellent point about making sure we do this right, and keep things organized.

Edit: I can also link some of the set design articles here or on another thread for everyone's benefit too.

Nuts and Bolts Design Skeleton: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2010-02-15

[Feyd_Ruin]

It's way too early to discuss propositions on the set, but...

Can't make a set of just cycles.

But what if we did?

For the very first get together, I'm thinking about listing all the names of people who have showed interest in the project, and then asking the listed people to come up with three of their favorite ideas for a custom plane/set. Once everyone suggests their favorite three ideas, we can then have a series of polls where the team votes on their favorite ideas that have been put forward.

I like this idea. We can start big (what plane is this - existing, new, give us a quick rundown) and narrow it a bit, like mechanics, themes, etc. Do we want top down or bottom up, etc, which we would probably hash out based on the themes/mechanics chosen.

[Krishnath]

Found the updated percentages:

[Venedrex]

Thanks for finding those! They will be an excellent resource, especially since the old articles are so outdated.

[MonoRedMage]

I'd be interested so long as I could be assigned to work on the red/colorless portions of the set.

[Venedrex]

I'd be interested so long as I could be assigned to work on the red/colorless portions of the set.

I was hoping you'd join the team. I was thinking about how you'd be a great fit for this sort of thing when I was going over the part about "each person working on their specific area of expertise."

[void_nothing]

Hmm, I feel like we should have a Creative lead(s) as well.

[Venedrex]

Hmm, I feel like we should have a Creative lead(s) as well.

Yeah, having someone do that would be great. Anyone here interested in being a creative lead?

[void_nothing]

I think I would be.

[Venedrex]

Awesome! I think I'm gonna get ready to throw out the first post where everyone from here can put forward their top three plane/set ideas, and we can get a feel for how things are gonna shake out. We can also start hashing out who wants to primarily tackle what in the set as well. From what I understand so far, the team is looking like this:

Note: None of this is binding or anything, so don't feel like you can't do other things, or as previously mentioned, that you have to do anything at all. This is just me getting an idea of what everyone seems to want to focus on if they had the choice. I fully expect this to be a very freeform development where we all occasionally dip into different aspects of the set, but this would be your preferred area.

void_nothing: Creative Lead
SecretInfiltrator:
Krishnath:
Feyd_Ruin:
dangerousdice:
MonoRedMage: Designing for Red and possibly Colorless.
Legend: (Not sure if you actually wanted to work on the set, or were just passing by the thread)
folding_music:
vendedrex: