Submerge mechanic - is this anything?

jamblock
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Post by jamblock » 3 years ago

Going for a vaguely eldritch, sinking world being overtaken by monsters from the depths vibe. This is the work of no more than an hour, so do not worry about being harsh if it is just a bad idea, I'm not married to it.


Dockripper Octopod 1UU
Creature — Octopus Mutant (C)
When Dockripper Octopod enters the battlefield, you may submerge target land. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
Whenever Dockripper Octopod attacks, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is the number of submerged permanents defending player controls. Put one on top of your library and the rest on the bottom in random order.
3/2

Dousing Finflayer 2U
Creature — Merfolk Shaman (U)
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, submerge target creature. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
U: Target submerged creature gets -2/-0 until end of turn. Activate this ability no more than twice each turn.
2/2

Imposing Tides 2U
Instant (U)
Submerge target permanent, then counter target spell unless its controller pays 1 for each sunken permanent they control. (Put a sunken counter on that permanent. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)

Murkspewer Crab U
Creature — Crab (C)
When Murkspewer Crab enters the battlefield, submerge target permanent. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
Murkspewer Crab gets +2/-1 as long as any one player controls two or more submerged permanents.
0/3

Serpent of the Depths 6U
Creature — Serpent (C)
Flash
Serpent of the Depths costs 1 less to cast for each submerged permanent on the battlefield.
5/5

Washover Scholar 1U
Creature — Human Wizard (U)
T: Counter target spell or ability an opponent controls that targets you or a permanent you control unless its controller pays 1 for each submerged permanent they control.
1U, T, Exile an instant or sorcery card from your graveyard: Submerge target permanent an opponent controls. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
1/3

Wielder of the Gush 2UU
Creature — Human Wizard (R)
Wielder of the Gush can't have counters put on it.
Whenever you cast a spell that targets one or more permanents that aren't submerged, choose one of them and submerge it. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
Whenever you cast a spell that targets one or more submerged permanents, choose one of them and gain control of it.
2/4

Murkback Hardshell 3B
Creature — Crab Horror (U)
Whenever Murkback Hardshell attacks, if it's submerged, it gets +2/+2 until end of turn and each player loses 1 life.
3/4

Shal Port Drowner 1B
Creature — Zombie (C)
When Shal Port Drowner enters the battlefield, if a creature died this turn, you may submerge target creature. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
Whenever a submerged creature an opponent controls dies, its controller loses 1 life for each sunken counter on it.
2/1

Sinkhole Devourer 3BB
Creature — Fish Horror (R)
Menace
Whenever an opponent taps a land for mana, submerge it. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, that player sacrifices a land with three or more sunken counters on it.
5/4

Whiskerfin Breeder 3B
Creature — Rat Fish Horror (C)
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may sacrifice a creature. If you do, submerge target permanent. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
2B, T: Create a 1/1 black Rat Fish creature token. Activate this ability only if an opponent controls three or more submerged permanents.
3/2

Rakthul the Tide-Reaper 3UUB
Legendary Creature — Leviathan (M)
Each submerged creature your opponents control gets -1/-1 for each sunken counter on it.
Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, submerge that creature. (Put a sunken counter on it. It's submerged as long as it has that counter. Its controller mills a card for each sunken counter on it.)
UB, Sacrifice a creature: Up to X target creatures attack this turn if able, where X is the sacrificed creature's toughness. Activate this ability only once each turn.
6/6

user_938036
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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

Its an interesting mechanic but there is one big problem and a few small ones.

The big problem, is this meant to be beneficial or detrimental? While mechanics can be both they should really only be one. Having themes of turning negatives positives is great but a flagship mechanic like this should never make you wonder if even playing it is wrong because it makes your opponents stuff better. Imposing Tides(good), Murkspewer Crab(gray area), Serpent of the Depths(debatable), Murkback Hardshell(bad). You don't want to think, "If I play more Imposing Tides they each get better but do I want my opponent dropping a turn 4 SotD?"

First small problem. Your payoffs are split between submerging a single permanent and submerging multiple. This is technically fine but if you go this route you split the pay offs by color. The fact that submerg already wants to stack on a single permanent is a concern but not a significant problem.

Next, this will be very difficult to balance. Because submerge is in effect its own win condition you have to be wary of any mill available in the same set and how easy it is to submerge the same target over and over. This limits the kinds of payoffs because it is its own payoff already.

Finally, players don't like incedental mill. Making it a flagship mechanic that carries the entire set goes a long way to mitigating this but without the payoffs being ready and significant it just feels like you're durdling for nothing.

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Feyd_Ruin
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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 3 years ago

I feel like the general idea is wonderful, but I agree the back and forth on good/bad is off putting. It's like a brilliant thought on the tip of your brain.

The mill mechanic is odd, but it does give the submerge an intrinsic value that you don't have to have other cards for. I do agree that you seem to both want to spread out and stack onto one, which creates a self-competing mechanic. Perhaps find a way to give it intrinsic value without caring about the number of counters, like "whenever it becomes tapped, mill 2"? Or maybe something completely different? It doesn't have to have that intrinsic value, but it does generally "feel better" to players if it has something with it.

The other point I see is that submerging a creature feels odd. Although we often play with funny ideas (My Kraken is equipped with a sword!), I think submerging any target creature can bring a bad mental image to mind quickly. How can my submerged Dragon still block other creatures with flying? Can't it just swim out? Why doesn't my Kraken start off submerged? Shouldn't my human drown? You submerged my fish... umm.. ok.. lol

If you take it back to its basics, the idea is that the lands are sinking. So going down a random train of thought, if you only submerge lands, it always fits. You could then add the intrinsic bonus without stacking counters (I do like the tapping mills you if its lands), and use the "opponent has submerged lands" to play off giving bonuses to your stuff. You thus make it always a good thing to submerge your opponent's lands, always a bad thing to have your stuff submerged, and you're not competing for stacking on a singular target.

Spells could play with it (Imposing Tides is already beautiful), and the creatures could play with the opponent having submerged lands. Serpent of the Depths cares about the number of submerged lands your opponents control. Murkback Hardshell gets his bonus when it attacks if the opponent has a submerged land. A kraken that's unblockable if they have (a? 3?) submerged lands. And so on and so forth.


Just spit balling my random thoughts, as it's immediately where my brain went and I love the general feel of your mechanic, world vibe, etc, and just the idea of submerging your opponent's stuff/lands.
:)
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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

I do like this a heck of a lot, but I'm in concurrence that this should only ever be used as a downside for your opponents. Murkback Hardshell feels really out of place.

And restricting the action to lands only also makes sense.
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