Playing around with threshold mechanics.

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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

Not the literal mechanic Threshold, but rather mechanics that activate when you fulfill certain criteria, like threshold (seven cards in graveyard), final hour (five life or less), and delirium (four different card types in your graveyard). This one doesn't actually have a name, but becomes active if you fulfill it's criteria, specifically if you control three deserts (or more).

Lurking Serpopard 2BG
Creature - Cat Snake (U)
Flash
Deathtouch
When Serpopard enters the battlefield, if you control three deserts, you may have it fight target creature. (Each deals damage equal to its power to the other.)
2/3

Nissa's Disciple 1GU
Creature - Naga Druid (U)
T: Add G or U. If you control three deserts, instead add GU.
2/2

Now, I am worried that the threshold for the mechanic is set to low at three, or that the cards are costed to low for their rarity.
Thoughts, comments, critiques, constructive criticism? Any is good.
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user_938036
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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

While such cards have to be balanced against the cards that are along side it the only comparison we have is amonkeht standard and limited. In a similar limited it will be very difficult to achieve this. Note that there is only a single card that has the same threshold and it searches for two lands so you only need one desert already. Also of note nearly every card that cared about deserts checked your graveyard because all the deserts encouraged you getting them into the graveyard either through sacrifices effects or cycling. Because the deserts aren't that good on their own its hard to justify having many of them which makes it very hard to get multiple on the battlefield.

If you were to introduce dual lands that were deserts or just more utility lands that are deserts these could be good but the majority of the time they will not be "on". Even dropping to the same restriction of one desert in play or graveyard your cards are perfectly fine. Your serpopard is a little pushed but not significantly and the disciple is a slightly beefed up Gyre Engineer.

Overall based on our current deserts they are on the weak side due to how difficult it is to activate them but some valuable deserts could easily change that.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 3 years ago

From a balance perspective, these both look fine to me. Even if they're fully active, Putrefy and Fyndhorn Elder are already cards that exist - if anything, they look a bit underpowered.

From a limited perspective, I'm not a fan, primarily because a threshold of three seems extremely difficult to reach. I'd be fine with balancing it around constructed if these were rares or mythics, but for uncommons I would want a more achievable goal.

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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

user_938036 wrote:
3 years ago
While such cards have to be balanced against the cards that are along side it the only comparison we have is amonkeht standard and limited. In a similar limited it will be very difficult to achieve this. Note that there is only a single card that has the same threshold and it searches for two lands so you only need one desert already. Also of note nearly every card that cared about deserts checked your graveyard because all the deserts encouraged you getting them into the graveyard either through sacrifices effects or cycling. Because the deserts aren't that good on their own its hard to justify having many of them which makes it very hard to get multiple on the battlefield.

If you were to introduce dual lands that were deserts or just more utility lands that are deserts these could be good but the majority of the time they will not be "on". Even dropping to the same restriction of one desert in play or graveyard your cards are perfectly fine. Your serpopard is a little pushed but not significantly and the disciple is a slightly beefed up Gyre Engineer.

Overall based on our current deserts they are on the weak side due to how difficult it is to activate them but some valuable deserts could easily change that.
Mookie wrote:
3 years ago
From a balance perspective, these both look fine to me. Even if they're fully active, Putrefy and Fyndhorn Elder are already cards that exist - if anything, they look a bit underpowered.

From a limited perspective, I'm not a fan, primarily because a threshold of three seems extremely difficult to reach. I'd be fine with balancing it around constructed if these were rares or mythics, but for uncommons I would want a more achievable goal.
The idea was to put them in a set with a high "as fan" of deserts, but the intent was never to have them "always on", if they were always on, then the limitation is kind of pointless to begin with. The intent was to have them be playable even if the "threshold" of three deserts wasn't achieved, but make them better if it were.

The set idea I had when I came up with these (a return to Amonkhet where the plane is slowly getting restored and life is returning to the desert, and old gods are stirring.) would, as I mentioned have a high "as fan" of deserts, and multiple ways to get "additional" deserts, sometimes by turning existing lands into deserts, or by outright searching for them (I am considering putting in Exploration Map at common for this purpose). So even in limited that shouldn't be to much of an issue. Heck, thanks to collation tech it would be possible to put in a dedicated slot for nonbasics in the set, thus guaranteeing that each booster will have a high chance of having a desert (common, uncommon, rare, or mythic).

One cycle I have considered is a cycle that has both a basic land and the desert type. But it would be difficult to determine if it would be "to good" for uncommon or not.
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
The idea was to put them in a set with a high "as fan" of deserts, but the intent was never to have them "always on", if they were always on, then the limitation is kind of pointless to begin with. The intent was to have them be playable even if the "threshold" of three deserts wasn't achieved, but make them better if it were.
You know a card with a threshold mechanic that wasn't "always on"? Solitary Camel. That's one Desert and you have to work for it. Heck, Arctic Aven already involves choice in Limited and you don't even have to draft those basic lands. That's the issue. If you only think about Constructed, then the environment is everything: Create an untapped Mountain Plains Desert dual land and you can put four of them into your Constructed deck, but in Limited you have to find those Deserts and commit to them. You aren't just expecting players in Draft to commit three picks to lands, but likely more since luckily getting all three of them, even if you get to tutor them up, that's more support cards for the theme to draft instead of actual pay-off.

As such the cards definitely deserve their tasty reward, but usually I'd advise tamer rewards for more reasonable requirements.

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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

SecretInfiltrator wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
The idea was to put them in a set with a high "as fan" of deserts, but the intent was never to have them "always on", if they were always on, then the limitation is kind of pointless to begin with. The intent was to have them be playable even if the "threshold" of three deserts wasn't achieved, but make them better if it were.
You know a card with a threshold mechanic that wasn't "always on"? Solitary Camel. That's one Desert and you have to work for it. Heck, Arctic Aven already involves choice in Limited and you don't even have to draft those basic lands. That's the issue. If you only think about Constructed, then the environment is everything: Create an untapped Mountain Plains Desert dual land and you can put four of them into your Constructed deck, but in Limited you have to find those Deserts and commit to them. You aren't just expecting players in Draft to commit three picks to lands, but likely more since luckily getting all three of them, even if you get to tutor them up, that's more support cards for the theme to draft instead of actual pay-off.

As such the cards definitely deserve their tasty reward, but usually I'd advise tamer rewards for more reasonable requirements.
Those are some very valid points, and here I was thinking I was pushing it with a requirement of three. Lol.
Maybe I should drop the requirement to two. It makes it easier, but I don't want it to be *to* easy either. That's just it though, I am way to used to thinking in terms of Commander to really think through other formats. >.<
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