FOUR cycles of Level Up Lands 07-Sep-2020

BaconCatBug
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

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: The one I like the least. I am not too sure of the name or the effect, but am struggling to come up with much else, as I am fixed on giving the green land the gain 1 life effect.
: Not too sure about the level 4 ability, might be too weak compared to the others?
: Pretty happy with this one. Mirrors the green land (the original idea) well and fits in with blacks theming. Perhaps I could make it all opponents instead, or would that be too much?
: I know Ramunap Ruins was banned, but that was mainly due to the environment it was in and the fact it was repeatable. My land always kills itself, and needs an investment of RRRR to go off. I can see this being lowered back to 2 damage, or being changed entirely.
: The original idea. Not much to say here other than I really like it. I considered making this one produce GGG or untap a basic land instead of the lifegain, but I feel those are too strong effects.
: An afterthought more than anything else.

Any thoughts? :)
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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I like them. Personally I'd reduce the damage of Dormant Volcano to 1 and let it only hit creatures, but remove the sacrifice clause. I'd also change it's name, because... well... Dormant Volcano is already a card.
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JovialJovian
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

For the white one, how about "When you do, untap target white creature."? That fits with white's mechanical space, flavors with a guard manning the stronghold, and isn't terribly powerful, while still being useful.

The blue one seems a just bit weak, but I feel like scry 1 would be too strong for the bonus effect. Not sure where to split the difference though.

I like the symmetry on the black one, and how it mirrors the green one. Losing 1 life is generally stronger than gaining 1 life, so having it hurt you too is a fair trade in my mind.

Gotta disagree with Krishnath. Repeated free removal on a land would be much too strong compared to the others. I think it needs a rework. Compare it to Mouth of Ronom, yours not only costs 1 less for the damage, but it can also hit any target, and gives RR back to you on activation, in addition to being a powerfully paid for in advance, with the actual activation being just a T. Far and away stronger than the rest of them.

Green one I saw in the daily challenge, and voted for! Very nice basic design.

Colorless one feels bland, but has the distinction of being the only one that can level itself up, and can thus net you four mana on turn three and up to six mana on turn four with just Wastes. Not huge, but notable.

Overall, I like the idea behind the design, but I guess I didn't think they would be quite so regimented a cycle just upon seeing the green one. They don't all have to be the same levels, or have the same costs, or even have the double-colored payoff.

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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
For the white one, how about "When you do, untap target white creature."? That fits with white's mechanical space, flavors with a guard manning the stronghold, and isn't terribly powerful, while still being useful.
Nice idea! I like it.
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
The blue one seems a just bit weak, but I feel like scry 1 would be too strong for the bonus effect. Not sure where to split the difference though.
Yeah that was my issue too. Not really sure how to get around it. What if you may scry and if you do the land skips an untap?
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
I like the symmetry on the black one, and how it mirrors the green one. Losing 1 life is generally stronger than gaining 1 life, so having it hurt you too is a fair trade in my mind.
My thoughts too.
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
Gotta disagree with Krishnath. Repeated free removal on a land would be much too strong compared to the others. I think it needs a rework. Compare it to Mouth of Ronom, yours not only costs 1 less for the damage, but it can also hit any target, and gives RR back to you on activation, in addition to being a powerfully paid for in advance, with the actual activation being just a T. Far and away stronger than the rest of them.
Fair enough. What if I made it a Sparksmith effect? 3 damage to a creature and 3 to you. That might step on the toes of the black land though. What if it was 2 damage to a creature instead? What about keeping it as Lightning Bolt but it loses all Level counters, because it blew it's top and needs to recharge?
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
Green one I saw in the daily challenge, and voted for! Very nice basic design.
Thank you! It got a very warm reception on Reddit and Discord too, which inspired me to make the cycle.
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
Colorless one feels bland, but has the distinction of being the only one that can level itself up, and can thus net you four mana on turn three and up to six mana on turn four with just Wastes. Not huge, but notable.
I think the restriction might be a little to harsh, to the point where it will never activate. Even having something like a Prophetic Prism will stop it triggering. I was thinking perhaps make it tap for CCC if you control 4 or more Wastes?
JovialJovian wrote:
3 years ago
Overall, I like the idea behind the design, but I guess I didn't think they would be quite so regimented a cycle just upon seeing the green one. They don't all have to be the same levels, or have the same costs, or even have the double-colored payoff.
I suppose, but I was kind of set on it being a symmetric cycle, although I agree it's a little harder to do as all the effects need to be roughly equal.
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
I like them. Personally I'd reduce the damage of Dormant Volcano to 1 and let it only hit creatures, but remove the sacrifice clause. I'd also change it's name, because... well... Dormant Volcano is already a card.
Welp don't I feel like a silly billy.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Welp don't I feel like a silly billy.
Don't worry about it, we all here in custom cards do it sooner or later. But when the game literally has over 10000 different cards already, it's bound to happen.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Did some tweaking. Does the reflexive trigger on Slumbering Volcano avoid the mana ability issues? Should it be knocked down to 2 damage? Same for Remote Atoll. If not, how would you suggest I word them? Should Forlorn Stronghold be able to untap power 3 creatures or just be a flat untap? Is Barren Wasteland still bad or is it too good now?
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I don't think you needed to power down Barren Wasteland at all, as it was, it was no stronger than the Urzatron, indeed I'd argue that it was slightly weaker than the Urzatron, and the Locus lands.

Also, as a side note on the art, I really dig that Ankor Wat (or a similar ruin) is used for the art of Overgrown Temple, it's perfect.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
I don't think you needed to power down Barren Wasteland at all, as it was, it was no stronger than the Urzatron, indeed I'd argue that it was slightly weaker than the Urzatron, and the Locus lands.

Also, as a side note on the art, I really dig that Ankor Wat (or a similar ruin) is used for the art of Overgrown Temple, it's perfect.
The image is part of the Ta Prohm temple complex in Siem Reap, Cambodia with your bog-standard Oil Painting filter slapped onto it.

I agree that it was weaker than the Urzatron, far weaker. It meant you literally could not have any non-C producing permanents on the battlefield. If you had a Prophetic Prism? No bonus. A plain old Island? No bonus. To lock you into literally mono-C made me feel it was one of those kinds of cards which have a "bonus" that is no niche as to be unplayable (e.g. Corrupted Crossroads). My intent wasn't to make it powered down, to be honest, I was trying to make it better!

Edit: Let's keep on beating this dead horse! I tweaked the atoll, and now have two variations of the templating. The top are based off Forbidden Orchard, the bottom are reflexive triggers. Give me your scathing objective criticism in my opinion, I feed off it!
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that it was weaker than the Urzatron, far weaker. It meant you literally could not have any non- producing permanents on the battlefield. If you had a Prophetic Prism? No bonus. A plain old Island? No bonus. To lock you into literally mono- made me feel it was one of those kinds of cards which have a "bonus" that is no niche as to be unplayable (e.g. Corrupted Crossroads). My intent wasn't to make it powered down, to be honest, I was trying to make it better!
It didn't make it better, it is still basically limited to colorless decks, it's now just harder for the colorless decks to get the mana bonus from it.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
I agree that it was weaker than the Urzatron, far weaker. It meant you literally could not have any non- producing permanents on the battlefield. If you had a Prophetic Prism? No bonus. A plain old Island? No bonus. To lock you into literally mono- made me feel it was one of those kinds of cards which have a "bonus" that is no niche as to be unplayable (e.g. Corrupted Crossroads). My intent wasn't to make it powered down, to be honest, I was trying to make it better!
It didn't make it better, it is still basically limited to colorless decks, it's now just harder for the colorless decks to get the mana bonus from it.
Fair enough. How about this set? The white land caused an infinite mana loop, so that had to be nixed. I changed the Red land to be a minor creature buff that you can't activate at instant speed. The Wastelands I have changed to be a minor mana ramp buff to benefit your colourless spells.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Fair enough. How about this set? The white land caused an infinite mana loop, so that had to be nixed. I changed the Red land to be a minor creature buff that you can't activate at instant speed. The Wastelands I have changed to be a minor mana ramp buff to benefit your colourless spells.
This version of Barren Wasteland is better than the second version, but the first version is still the best. People really have no reason to play it outside of dedicated colorless decks because the colored versions exist. If I am playing a green/red deck for example, I'd be better of running the red and green versions than ever use the colorless version.

As for the new red version, it is without a doubt the weakest of the six, I'd drop the main phase clause, because it makes it the odd one out of the six since none of the others have the clause, and it isn't really needed.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Fair enough. How about this set? The white land caused an infinite mana loop, so that had to be nixed. I changed the Red land to be a minor creature buff that you can't activate at instant speed. The Wastelands I have changed to be a minor mana ramp buff to benefit your colourless spells.
This version of Barren Wasteland is better than the second version, but the first version is still the best. People really have no reason to play it outside of dedicated colorless decks because the colored versions exist. If I am playing a green/red deck for example, I'd be better of running the red and green versions than ever use the colorless version.

As for the new red version, it is without a doubt the weakest of the six, I'd drop the main phase clause, because it makes it the odd one out of the six since none of the others have the clause, and it isn't really needed.
The clause is there because people were complaining that instant speed combat tricks "hidden" in your lands is bad design. I don't really agree but I keep getting complaints. I'll remove it and see if I get more complaints. What if the wastes added {C}{C}{C}{C} instead, would that make it worth taking over the others if you're going colourless?

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
3 years ago
BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Fair enough. How about this set? The white land caused an infinite mana loop, so that had to be nixed. I changed the Red land to be a minor creature buff that you can't activate at instant speed. The Wastelands I have changed to be a minor mana ramp buff to benefit your colourless spells.
This version of Barren Wasteland is better than the second version, but the first version is still the best. People really have no reason to play it outside of dedicated colorless decks because the colored versions exist. If I am playing a green/red deck for example, I'd be better of running the red and green versions than ever use the colorless version.

As for the new red version, it is without a doubt the weakest of the six, I'd drop the main phase clause, because it makes it the odd one out of the six since none of the others have the clause, and it isn't really needed.
The clause is there because people were complaining that instant speed combat tricks "hidden" in your lands is bad design. I don't really agree but I keep getting complaints. I'll remove it and see if I get more complaints. What if the wastes added {C}{C}{C}{C} instead, would that make it worth taking over the others if you're going colourless?
I disagree that it is bad design, nine times out of ten you are going to use it in your mainphase anyway, and besides, WotC have printed a *lot* of lands that pump or give abilities that can be activated whenever. My personal favorite is Vault of the Archangel, but it is far from the only one. The red version you posted is a lot weaker than other uncommon examples of such lands, such as Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion or Goblin Burrows. Remember, you have to level up the land to get access to it, and it isn't hidden info as it will be quite visible.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Well, you've convinced me. How about this:
T: Add RR.
Whenever you tap Dragonbreath Bluff for mana, up to two target creatures get +1/+0 until end of turn.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
Well, you've convinced me. How about this:
T: Add RR.
Whenever you tap Dragonbreath Bluff for mana, up to two target creatures get +1/+0 until end of turn.
Looks fine to me.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

I'm actually thinking now that the green land is too weak compared to some of the other lands now. :(

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

BaconCatBug wrote:
3 years ago
I'm actually thinking now that the green land is too weak compared to some of the other lands now. :(
Easy fix, up it to two life.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

People complained it was too close to The Great Henge then. That and people saying it was worthless because it taps for C and can't pump themselves making them dead draws in the early game. I just don't know what to think anymore I keep getting mutually exclusive feedback.

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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I wouldn't say it is close to The Great Henge, particularly considering the artifacts last ability is the reason it is played. Your land doesn't give out +1/+1 counters or draw cards. But if you are afraid that it is to similar, you can have it grant a keyword ability instead, I recommend trample, or you can have it generate a 0/1 plant token, although the latter may be a bit strong.
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

Your version of the untapping on the white one caused infinite mana loops, but if you restrict it to white creatures, it does not. All the creatures that untap a land are green, and none of the effects that animate a land make it white, so it won't loop with itself. You would require at least one more card to change some colors, which is an effect that barely gets printed anymore and was almost entirely in blue. It's still possible to create an infinite mana loop, but requires more cards to get it running, which is totally fair.

I too was going to comment that the colored ones both do not tap for their color, and as a result also cannot level themselves up. But to make them produce colored mana on level 0, you would also need them to ETB tapped for balance. That would be a significant change, but I do not think it would be definitely better or worse, just different.

You are stumbling with the inherent problem of creating a cycle: getting all five (or six) pieces of the cycle to both feel balanced, be roughly equal in power to each other, and closely match mechanically, but still have their own separate identities that fit into the colors.

You're right, the green one sticks out as weaker, but that's because you've been adjusting the rest of them upward since the first draft. Remember also, green will have the easiest time in getting it to max level, so it's fair that it's payoff be on the slightly lower side.

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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

Yeah, you're right. It's just not possible to add any effects that are even remotely balanced when I made the original one so weak, which is the one I liked to begin with because it wasn't meant to be a strong, rare land effect.

I just gave up and made it a bog standard, boring identical cycle.
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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

So I realised that being locked into the 2 mana thing was really hurting my ability to balance. I kept the Green as the original (it's green, and a bad The Great Henge) and made the others a little less rampy so the added effects can work.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I'd call that pretty darn close to perfection. I'd play Barren Wasteland in my Karn, Silver Golem deck.
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 3 years ago

The double mana on the green one still goes against expectations. If four members of a five-color cycle (or the five-color part of a six-kind-cycle) produce a single mana than the expectation is that the fifth will as well. And it is much more powerful that way. Plus the colorless member of the cycle has the "double mana" already covered.

I'm really happy to see how the red member of the cycle has moved away from sacrificing. That also was an odd one out.

A weird weakness of the cycle is that it helps you produce colored mana only after you have proven that you have enough of that mana to spend it on the level up cost repeatedly. That's something that has always been there.

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Post by BaconCatBug » 3 years ago

SecretInfiltrator wrote:
3 years ago
The double mana on the green one still goes against expectations. If four members of a five-color cycle (or the five-color part of a six-kind-cycle) produce a single mana than the expectation is that the fifth will as well. And it is much more powerful that way. Plus the colorless member of the cycle has the "double mana" already covered.

I'm really happy to see how the red member of the cycle has moved away from sacrificing. That also was an odd one out.

A weird weakness of the cycle is that it helps you produce colored mana only after you have proven that you have enough of that mana to spend it on the level up cost repeatedly. That's something that has always been there.
I get that, I made the Green land originally and have been pulling my hair out trying to get the cycle to work. I know the other lands seem weird not making 2 mana but all the lands making 2 mana was making the additional effect too hard to balance with "gain one life".

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