Instant/sorcery creatures for a custom set

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

Greetings

I have been working on a custom set with a "instants and sorceries matter" theme. For that I decided to try my hand at Instant Creatures and Sorcery Creatures. And came up with the following mechanic:
Elicit[cost] (you may cast CARDNAME for its Elicit cost. If you do, CARDNAME is no longer a [card type]

Edit: to lessen up some design restrictions (mainly in green) I changed the mechanic to allow for instant/sorcery creatures that can be cast as just creatures.

Here is an example common from the set:

Sol Sprite 1WW
Instant Creature - Spirit (C)
-
Elicit 1W Destroy up to one target enchantment
(you may cast CARDNAME for its Elicit cost. If you do, CARDNAME is no longer a creature)
-
Flying
1/2
SPOILER
Show
Hide
The one errata that will be needed for this to work is the one that states that instants/sorceries can't enter the battlefield (which is a weird rule because "non-permanents can't enter the battlefield" is also a rule and covers that?)

Edit: after reading some helpful replies, I realize that I have been unclear in my wording.

Essentially, think of this as evoke 2.0. Except they're actually instants/and sorceries. This is both for flavor reasons (that they're actual spell-creatures) and for mechanics reasons (evoke has massive synergies with flicker and other creature synergistic effects, while this has more fun interactions with "instants and sorceries matter" cards)
Last edited by Craftedlavaistrue 3 years ago, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by Morpic_Tide » 3 years ago

Functionally, the two differences from Adventure are the lack of recursion, and the fact they count as both types at all times, so both forms of recursion apply. There's also the matter that they can be erratad to hold their creature subtype when Elicited, allowing them to work perfectly well as a replacement to the Tribal supertype, at least for Instants and Sorceries. With regards to Power and Toughness, non-creatures don't have it regardless of what's printed on the card; see the Bestow and Vehicle rules.

My main question is what kind of functions you were looking at before splitting the permanent from the Instant or Sorcery. "What part of the card is the Instant part?" only matters if you're starting from them functioning as a form of split card. And a literal Instant/Creature split card would combine their properties for out-of-play effects, including combining CMC, so they'd still behave as Instant Creatures in the hand, deck, or graveyard, but only ever be one or the other when on the stack or battlefield.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
3 years ago
*stuff and talks*
Oh, I think I was a bit unclear here, I meant splitting up the effect of the card, not that it's a split card, silly of me.
Think more "evoke 2, 1000 year storm boogaloo"

Also? What do you mean by recursion? I don't remember adventures being a recursive effect?
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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

Alright. I'm going to be very blunt. It isn't reasonable to do this. Ignoring the problems with conflicting cast timing how is the creature spell supposed to handle the rules text of the instant portion? There is a very good reason this isnt done and its not because no one thought of it yet. As you can clearly see they explored the idea with Evoke and not once is the card not a permanent spell.

If you really want to keep the dual types for thematic reasons its much easier than what you have. Go the same route as adventure but alter the rules so that only on the stack and the battlefield do you have a single set of characteristics.

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Post by Ryder » 3 years ago

I think it's doable, but it'd definitely require a custom card frame. Here's my take:

Sol Sprite 1W
Choose this spell's type as you cast it.
[Instant]
Destroy target enchantment
[Creature — Spirit (C)]
Flying
1/2

Imagine a vertical frame split with two type lines and rule sections.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

Ryder wrote:
3 years ago
If I did it like this I might as well have actual split cards or something similar.

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Post by Ryder » 3 years ago

You could actually pull it off with the already existing split card frame. Just add a simple CR entry about split cards on the battlefield.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

Ryder wrote:
3 years ago
You could actually pull it off with the already existing split card frame. Just add a simple CR entry about split cards on the battlefield.
But they're not intended to work like split cards, I was a bit dumb in my choice of words in the original post. The mechanic I made was intended more as a evoke 2.0

(I have edited OP to make this more clear)

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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

This is tricky to evaluate. There's a bunch of weaknesses that come up for me looking at this.

Most of them aren't dealbreakers though:
  • The two halves aren't connected. Compare this to fuse cards and aftermath cards which are a one-two, or evoke which evoke which gives me the same effect via the ETB/LTB ability, just I choose whether I get a creature body as well (and in the case of LTB abilities, whether I get the effect immediately or later). However, classic split cards don't do this, modals often don't, and adventure cards have few one-two combos as well. (Fewer than I remembered: mainly Bonecrusher Giant and Lovestruck Beast and Realm-Cloaked Giant, and that's about it. Many of the rest are just thematically connected, or it's handy to have the creature on the battlefield and then still cast the Adventure spell.)
  • Rules box size. Because you have two fit two fundamentally separate sets of text on the same card, each card only gets half as much space. Adventure cards indicate this isn't a huge problem. Aftermath cards and Mutate cards are an indicator of the space you have to work with in a vertical layout.
  • Communication to players. Wizards is dealing with circumstances where, for example, they introduced the flavor text separator bar because newer players often enough confused flavor text for also being rules text. How do you convey to them how these spells work? But, OK, let's rule this off as not important—this set's only going to be seen by more advanced players anyway.
There are a couple of more significant issues to address.

Issue #1: Rules changes around having a spell effect on a non-instant non-sorcery.
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
The one errata that will be needed for this to work is the one that states that instants/sorceries can't enter the battlefield (which is a weird rule because "non-permanents can't enter the battlefield" is also a rule and covers that?)
The rules issues run a bit deeper than this.

Another thing is that this is an instant/sorcery on the stack with a spell effect in its text: "Destroy target enchantment." This means I choose targets, and the spell effect occurs on resolution. I cannot cast the creature spell without a target to choose. Those need changes too. So this isn't just not an instant on the stack, it also doesn't have its Elicit effect on the stack either.

This means you may need to handle Elicit like this:
Elicit 1W—Destroy target enchantment. (If you cast this spell for its elicit cost, it's not a creature. Otherwise, it doesn't have this ability while it's a spell.)
I'm not super comfortable with that running entirely on negation though.

Alternately, you may need to errata that instants/sorceries that are also permanents have their spell text ignored, and you need to communicate that to players on the cards somehow. This also means players need to clearly understand what is/isn't spell text somehow.

Adventures and split cards can deal with this more easily because when you cast the spell, it has only the characteristics of the part you've cast, and the fact they're in different frames makes this much easier to recognise and handle.

Issue #2: Combos and nonbos with "instants and sorceries matter" effects

You're building this mechanic because it's an instants/sorceries matter set, but this mechanic actually interacts really strangely with instants/sorceries matter abilities.
  • Flashback (or similar): I can't use Snapcaster Mage or Past in Flames on these cards despite them being instants/sorceries. I can't pick two alternative costs, so I can't cast this for Elicit and for Flashback. So I can only flashback this spell as a creature. But instead of getting a creature for doing this, it gets exiled and does nothing.
  • Flashback-like: Mizzix's Mastery exiles this card, and again I can only cast the creature portion for an alternative cost ("without paying its mana cost" is an alternative cost), but a copy of a creature spell on the stack isn't defined in the rules yet and doesn't really do anything.
  • Rebound: If I have Cast Through Time or Taigam, Ojutai Master, that actually wreaks havoc. If I cast the creature, instead it goes away then gets cast again next turn. If I Elicit the card though, it comes back next turn as a creature and not an Elicited spell (alternative cost again), and that's nice.
  • Instant/sorcery spell copying: Melek, Izzet Paragon and similar spells want to copy these cards even when they're cast as creature spells, but thats not defined.
There may be others.

Things that just care about you casting instant/sorcery spells are safe.

Basically, Magic has been built on a bunch of assumptions that Instants and Sorceries are always only that, and never also permanents, which lets them make all the instants/sorceries matters abilities handle them in particular ways they wouldn't want to handle permanents. This structural assumption gives them a lot of freedom, because they can just grant all your instants/sorceries flashback without having to worry that you might also want a permanent out of it.

Alternatives

We have actually seen effects like this a lot. Beside evoke, the closest things to this mechanic are cycling triggers ("When you cycle this card") which can turn cards into cantrip spells, and adventures. There's also simply the capacity to say this instead:
Elicit1W, Discard this card: Destroy target enchantment.
But all of these make the creature not an instant/sorcery and the effect not one either.

I think the best way to navigate this space would be to make this a spell first, and not a creature. This winds up comparable to Awaken. So instead of a creature that can be cast as an instant, you have:

Sol's Judgement 1W
Instant
Destroy target enchantment.

Elicit (You may pay an additional as you cast this spell. If you do, put it onto the battlefield as a Creature as it resolves.)
This creature is a Spirit.
Flying
[1/2]

This fares a little better, but you still can't usefully use Elicit with Flashback, instant/sorcery copying, etc, but players might think they can and misplay. You could also create a token, but that is going to need a lot of tokens (see Embalm/Eternalize) or not many Elicit spells or Elicit spells should re-use tokens (e.g. several green Elicit spells could just be ordinary instants/sorceries that create varying numbers of 2/2 Wolf tokens).



As a final note, I'd caution that you be careful you're not simply box-checking, or put differently, doing something just because it hasn't been done yet. Mark Rosewater talks about this a lot, but I don't know if he has a specific article about it. Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is a famous example he offers up: R&D noticed they hadn't done a CMC-2 planeswalker yet, dared themselves that they could, and made one, but it was a complete flop. (Their next attempt, Wrenn and Six, fared a lot better.) We haven't seen an instant/sorcery set yet, but that's because there's a lot of structural issues around doing that, and just because it hasn't been done isn't alone necessarily an indicator it should be done.

I bring this up because you're running into one of those structural problems—needing a certain mass of instants and sorceries. None of the previous solutions (like cycling triggers as mentioned) are ones you can use on account of the structural needs. But this also has its own structural problems.

That said, if you're working on this for other reasons than "it hasn't been done yet so I'm gonna", then that can be fine. Be careful about the structural issues you're running into though.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
This is tricky to evaluate. There's a bunch of weaknesses that come up for me looking at this.

*some good stuff*
Thank you! This is greatly helpful to me!

The main reason it has that "bar" (and also why it is modal) is due to a mock-up someone did of a "sorcery creature", and trust me, it was a very confusing card to read and understand. (can't find it tho...)

The way I see it with targeting is that creatures "target the battlefield by default" (aka, it works similarly to bestow and mutate). But handling the targeting requirement to begin with is. Well, as you've said it.
Having it be targetless ("destroy an enchan..,") could fix this, but that brings up balance issues.
With the way permanents work, I don't think them having spell text matters. This because rules text is only cared about when it actually does something.

Regarding synergistic issues: flashback still works. It's an instant and a creature! (Again, it's not a split card) it's still a bit of a nonbo due to the exile, but it can be cast.
The same goes for copy effects. Just like how "Copy target creature" targeting an enchantment creature creates another enchantment creature instead of just a Creature.
spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
Sol's Judgement
Instant
Destroy target enchantment.

Elicit (You may pay an additional as you cast this spell. If you do, put it onto the battlefield as a Creature as it resolves.)
This creature is a Spirit.
Flying
[1/2]
Fun fact, this is exactly how Mark Rosewater originally designed Evoke: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2007-10-01
In short: it's really messy with flicker effects.

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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
The same goes for copy effects. Just like how "Copy target creature" targeting an enchantment creature creates another enchantment creature instead of just a Creature.
Effects that copy instants or sorceries—such as Reverberate—always copy instant or sorcery spells, so you can't use this to copy an instant/sorcery creature on the battlefield. The case I mean to highlight in drawing attention to this is the case where you have 1 actual "instant creature" spell on the stack. If you copy it with Reverberate, you have a copy of an "instant creature" spell on the stack... but what happens when you have a copy of a permanent spell on the stack isn't defined as far as I'm aware.

----

It just occurred to me: beside instant/sorcery creatures, another potential avenue is batching. That would involve creating a supertype to give to permanents instead of making them instant/sorcery permanents. You can then have a batch that cares about instants, sorceries, and that supertype.

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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Doesn't have to be a supertype. Sagas are a subtype and those are part of historic. Heck, you can use Elemental. Then you can simply use evoke like it was intended for, or just achieve a second mode with "COST, Discard this card:" abilities.

...

Fire-Mad Summoner R
Creature - Human Wizard (C)
First strike
Whenever you cast an ethereal spell, Fire-Mad Summoner gets +1/+1 until end of turn. (Instants, sorceries, and Elementals are ethereal.)
"Simple minds only see flame, but in every ember I see an ancient sage counseling me."
1/1
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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
I assume it works as any copy. Just that it's on the stack first and then goes onto the battlefield.
For the set I am adding some cards that do interact with these permanents.

I don't see how batching fixes anything tho. But I do have a super type that these fit under. (Which is used to in another mechanic for the set that encourage you to "play the entire card" for better board presence, instead of just having the casting of the spell be the only thing that matters)
void_nothing wrote:
3 years ago
I don't think elementals have the right flavor, but I think this is the closest to a fix that works with current rules.
—————

"but I want it to be instant/sorcery creatures" I said childishly.

My absolute biggest irk with "spell effects" such as evoke or "discard this card... " is that, they're not actually instants and sorceries. But how fun wouldn't it be if they actually were? The fact that they're not spells mechanically means that they're not actually spells, and as such aren't spells flavor wise either. Which just so grating to my mind.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
We haven't seen an instant/sorcery set yet, but that's because there's a lot of structural issues around doing that, and just because it hasn't been done isn't alone necessarily an indicator it should be done.

I bring this up because you're running into one of those structural problems—needing a certain mass of instants and sorceries. None of the previous solutions (like cycling triggers as mentioned) are ones you can use on account of the structural needs. But this also has its own structural problems.

That said, if you're working on this for other reasons than "it hasn't been done yet so I'm gonna", then that can be fine. Be careful about the structural issues you're running into though.
I wanted to respond to this earlier, but I was unsure how to put it into words properly.

I think the issue with the structure of a "X" matters set isn't The need for a volume for X. But how to retain the rest of the game as you do so.
Lets take Theros and my set (lets call it skippy) as examples.

Beginning with Theros: Theros has a enchantments matter theme, and lets say we are making a new set for Theros.
we jack up the amount of enchantments.
Already we run into a problem. It's not that we don't have enough enchantments. But it's the fact that the Bant colours are just dominating draft and are the colours that care most about what the set has to offer in constructed. And
Enchantment creatures and enchantments with ETB effects was a way to let the other colours to work in the Enchantment setting.

For skippy, this becomes "how do I make sure this doesn't become Blue Red: the set". How do I make green and white. the two colours that are the most creature heavy. Matter in a way that doesn't break the colour pie and/or distribution of card types?
Instant and sorcery creatures (and also in/sorce artifacts/enchantments, but there are less of them) lets all the colours do "in/sorce matter" without the Izzet trying to assimilate them.

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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
I assume it works as any copy. Just that it's on the stack first and then goes onto the battlefield.
Those rules aren't currently defined. 706.10a says a copy of a spell ceases to exist as it leaves the stack, since it assumes the only time this will ever happen is for a nonpermanent instant/sorcery. It would need to be defined that a copy of a permanent spell will actually enter the battlefield (as a token, presumably).
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
I don't see how batching fixes anything tho. But I do have a super type that these fit under. (Which is used to in another mechanic for the set that encourage you to "play the entire card" for better board presence, instead of just having the casting of the spell be the only thing that matters)
It lets you off the hook for needing to create instant/sorcery creatures, which has significant rules and game implications.

In Back to the Future Sight, part 1 published earlier this week, Mark Rosewater talks about the Dryad Arbor:
This card seemed so innocent. It's a land and a creature. We combine other card types. Why not these two?

If the rules manager was allowed to make a list of cards and permanently erase them from the game's existence, this card would be high on that list. The rules for creatures and the rules for lands really don't like to intermix. We've learned to accept that new things affecting creatures or lands have some percentage of chance to cause a problem with Dryad Arbor.
If that can be said for lands and creatures, then it's even more true for instants/sorceries and creatures.

Right now instants/sorceries are always not permanents, and the game (and cards) can make a lot of design choices assuming that will continue to be true. Part of the structural issues I'm talking about is the implication of making that not true. You don't have to worry so much about that if you don't have to worry about future sets after that has been made not true, though, I guess.
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
For skippy, this becomes "how do I make sure this doesn't become Blue Red: the set". How do I make green and white. the two colours that are the most creature heavy. Matter in a way that doesn't break the colour pie and/or distribution of card types?
Instant and sorcery creatures (and also in/sorce artifacts/enchantments, but there are less of them) lets all the colours do "in/sorce matter" without the Izzet trying to assimilate them.
So while I recognise this is the motivation for instants/sorceries to make an instant/sorcery set not focused on Izzet ... the implication of needing to make instant/sorcery creatures to keep the set structure supported, and all the baggage that comes with, is the structural issues I'm referencing.

Slapping the Enchantment type on a Creature comes virtually for free; the rules fully support it already. It carries virtually no ongoing major implications for creatures or for enchantments. The same cannot be said of slapping the Instant/Sorcery type on a creature.



Edit: All of this said, lots of these structural issues only apply to Wizards, really. In a custom set you could just say "it works the way you think it would, like this." You wouldn't have to actually update the CR's wording, but you'd need to provide some guidance and rulings around some situations. You also wouldn't have to concern yourself with future implications of instants/sorceries also possibly being permanents.

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Post by Craftedlavaistrue » 3 years ago

spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
I assume it works as any copy. Just that it's on the stack first and then goes onto the battlefield.
Those rules aren't currently defined. 706.10a says a copy of a spell ceases to exist as it leaves the stack, since it assumes the only time this will ever happen is for a nonpermanent instant/sorcery. It would need to be defined that a copy of a permanent spell will actually enter the battlefield (as a token, presumably).
Oof. Guess I need to define "copy of permanent spell" then
spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
"Blah"
It lets you off the hook for needing to create instant/sorcery creatures, which has significant rules and game implications.

In Back to the Future Sight, part 1 published earlier this week, Mark Rosewater talks about the Dryad Arbor:
"blah"
- Rark Mosewater
If that can be said for lands and creatures, then it's even more true for instants/sorceries and creatures.

Right now instants/sorceries are always not permanents, and the game (and cards) can make a lot of design choices assuming that will continue to be true. Part of the structural issues I'm talking about is the implication of making that not true. You don't have to worry so much about that if you don't have to worry about future sets after that has been made not true, though, I guess.
I think the special issue with lands is that playing a land is a special action. (Essentially, dryad arbor is 100% uncounterable)
But after looking at both inst/sorce synergy cards, I can't help but feel like it's going to break everything. Some rules kerfuffle sure, but not barhoken.
But. Shouldn't I be convinced by now that this is a bad idea? I can't Stop the thought of "ech, it still works, right?"
Am I going insane?
spacemonaut wrote:
3 years ago
Craftedlavaistrue wrote:
3 years ago
"Blah"
So while I recognise this is the motivation for instants/sorceries to make an instant/sorcery set not focused on Izzet ... the implication of needing to make instant/sorcery creatures to keep the set structure supported, and all the baggage that comes with, is the structural issues I'm referencing.

Slapping the Enchantment type on a Creature comes virtually for free; the rules fully support it already. It carries virtually no ongoing major implications for creatures or for enchantments. The same cannot be said of slapping the Instant/Sorcery type on a creature.



Edit: All of this said, lots of these structural issues only apply to Wizards, really. In a custom set you could just say "it works the way you think it would, like this." You wouldn't have to actually update the CR's wording, but you'd need to provide some guidance and rulings around some situations. You also wouldn't have to concern yourself with future implications of instants/sorceries also possibly being permanents.
AFAIK a lot of the cards that interact with instants and sorceries do so in a very rigid and robust way. I don't see them breaking that easily.

Structural issues I can handle. That's just part of the design challenge.

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