Busted (?) commander i dreamt about

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

I dreamt about this card. In my dream i was excited about building and playing it. It's probably really busted... but maybe not? Let's give it try

Weird dream general URG or UWR (can't remember)
Legendary creature - Dinosaur serpent (i guess)
Each other creature has base power 8
8/8

So... maybe balanced? maybe should just cost a little more? Or the whole concept is just too busted?

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

At that cost, it's absurd.

With a higher mana cost, this'd be really fun! The symmetrical aspect of this makes it feel quite a bit fairer (at least everything is still almost always going to kill everything else in combat, and you're hosed if you face the weenie deck!), but no matter what, the game ends fast with this out.

3RGWU seems like an alright cost, maybe a bit safe. Compare to Gigantomancer.
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JovialJovian
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

at UGR, it's OP, at 3RGWU I wouldn't play it.

I would cost it at 6cmc, color is debatable. To emphasize the flavor of the 8 power ability, it would be cute to make it a 0/8, in which case I could see it as low as 5 cmc, since it becomes a bit more vulnerable to tricks. It's an interesting design with some serious deckbuilding implications for a single line of text.

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Yeah if it's not itself an 8/8 it could definitely go down to CMC 5. I thought about saying it should be 3GUR or 2RGWU, but a six-mana commander that could just end the whole game that same turn cycle might not make some people happy.

I'm a sucker for simple commanders that can be four-color though, so adding the white in makes even more sense if it's a 0/8. The green is obvious, the red also makes sense since it's a power boost, blue gets plenty of p/t setting, and the symmetricality and how well it works with large swarms of creatures seems partly white. If the creature is a 0/8, then the white also stands for selflessness - everyone else gets powerful while the legend itself stays at 0 power.
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Mimicvat
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Post by Mimicvat » 3 years ago

Eh, I can't be the only one who doesn't subscribe to the "creature power must be expensive" camp? 40 life and the vintage cardpool say otherwise, if Derevi can be 3 mana, so can a powerful combat effect. I'm not super keen on him just being an unconditional 8 power anthem on turn three, but if we chuck in some restrictions of some sort it could be very playable. Even without them I believe he'd still be quite playable, as most decks can put out some form of mana dorks or other random creatures and get the bonus too.

What about one of these approaches:

Busted Dreamboi rgw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
Each creature's base power and toughness are x/x, where x is the current turn number.
0/0

Busted Dreamboi 2 rgw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
When ~ enters the battlefield, tap any number of other creatures you control and put that many +1/+1 counters on ~. All other creatures base power and toughness are equal to the number of counters on ~.
0/0

Busted Dreamboi 3 rbw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
Devour 1 (When this creature enters battlefield, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This permanent enters the battlefield with that many +1/+1 counters on it for each creature sacrificed this way.)
Each other creature's base power and toughness are equal to ~'s power and toughness.
0/0

They're all designed to prevent you getting this power effect too early, without just raising his cost. I also took blue out because this doesn't seem to be in it's wheelhouse and removing blue is a great way to reign in any random commander ideas someone might have
Currently building: ww Bruna, the Fading Light (card advantage tribal / reanimator)
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r Neheb, Big Red Champion g Yeva's Mono Green Control, b Ayara's Aristocrats rb Greven, Predator Captain the One Punch Man, ugw Derevri, Empirical Tactician Aggro,rwbu Tymna & Kraum's Saboteurs, wbg Kondo & Tymna's Hatebears wugTuvasa's Silver Bullets, urBrudiclad does Brudiclad thingsgubSidisi, Brood Tyrant (lantern control)

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
3 years ago
I dreamt about this card. In my dream i was excited about building and playing it. It's probably really busted... but maybe not? Let's give it try

Weird dream general URG or UWR (can't remember)
Legendary creature - Dinosaur serpent (i guess)
Each other creature has base power 8
8/8

So... maybe balanced? maybe should just cost a little more? Or the whole concept is just too busted?
I like the idea, I'd take it a step farther.
Dream General 2URG
Legendary Creature — Elemental Serpent
Each other creature has base power equal to Dream General's power.
Lethal damage dealt to creatures is determined by their power rather than their toughness.
8/4

Yeah it's a riff on Zilthora but it's global and I figured if you're changing everyone's power you should use that for something. Im sure there's a good way to break the symmetry. -X/-0 effects. Made a change. I like this cuz it opens up more potential deck building routes.

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JovialJovian
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Post by JovialJovian » 3 years ago

If we're making suggested versions:

Dream Serpent 2RGW
Legendary Creature - Dinosaur Serpent
All creatures have base power 8.
0/6

Naya makes the most sense to me for the effect, kinda a blend of an anthem and Humility.
I think making it 8 power is a bit too durable, so we knock that down just a bit.
It does turn its own power to 8 from 0.
I don't think that 3cmc is workable. In my mind, a potential blowout like that really shouldn't cost less than 5cmc. It'll play more like a Craterhoof or a Titanic Ultimatum, you don't drop it until you've got a board presence that can capitalize on it, and by turn 4, your opponents will have something to answer it, less likely on turn 3, when I see many players with just mana rocks.

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

@Mimicvat

Your versions all have their good points! Of course, it feels like a different card if the cost is small and the size can vary.

Version 1 I wouldn't print as is ("Wait, is it turn 11 or 12? Do I have lethal on this person or not?" "Whose turn number does that mean anyway?") but there's a number we can easily use to pseudo-track turn number: Just have it count the number of lands you control. You can cheat lands out, sure, but you can also miss land drops, so rough with the smooth.

Version 2 is neat as-is - kind of a funky convoke variant - but needs to be an additional cost or an "As...enters" ability for state-based action reasons. But that's just a wording quibble.

Version 3 is immensely enjoyable to me, partly because of my affection for Thromok the Insatiable. Also makes perfect sense in the Mardu colors.
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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

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Segrus
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Post by Segrus » 3 years ago

Another possible template is to reuse Marath, Will of the Wild effect. Something like:

Weird Dream General's power and toughness are equal to the amount of mana spent to cast it.
Other creatures have base power equal to Weird Dream General's power.

It might not be allowed to word it that way, so maybe a better alternative is:

Weird Dream General enters the battlefield with a number of (charge?) counters equal to the amount of mana spent to cast it.
Weird Dream General has power and toughness equal to the number of charge counters on it.
Other creatures have base power equal to Weird Dream General's power.

I don't know. Just another thought. I would definitely play something like what you've described.

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Mimicvat wrote:
3 years ago
Eh, I can't be the only one who doesn't subscribe to the "creature power must be expensive" camp? 40 life and the vintage cardpool say otherwise, if Derevi can be 3 mana, so can a powerful combat effect. I'm not super keen on him just being an unconditional 8 power anthem on turn three, but if we chuck in some restrictions of some sort it could be very playable. Even without them I believe he'd still be quite playable, as most decks can put out some form of mana dorks or other random creatures and get the bonus too.

What about one of these approaches:

Busted Dreamboi rgw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
Each creature's base power and toughness are x/x, where x is the current turn number.
0/0
If I were gonna go this route I'd use "...equal to the number of cards you've drawn this game." Yes there's some functional difference but it should be easier to track, since you can usually count up your cards. If you're playing it tho you should be keeping track but you never know with people
Busted Dreamboi 2 rgw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
When ~ enters the battlefield, tap any number of other creatures you control and put that many +1/+1 counters on ~. All other creatures base power and toughness are equal to the number of counters on ~.
0/0
Make it all creatures and give it flash and I'm on board. Tapping yourself out could lead to a blow out so not a fan of that. Also as printed it dies immediately but not before setting all creature to 0/0. Now that could be an explorable idea haha.
Busted Dreamboi 3 rbw
Legendary creature - Dinosaur Serpent
Devour 1 (When this creature enters battlefield, you may sacrifice any number of creatures. This permanent enters the battlefield with that many +1/+1 counters on it for each creature sacrificed this way.)
Each other creature's base power and toughness are equal to ~'s power and toughness.
0/0

This is my favorite of the 3. Devour uses "as", not "when"/nitpick. I feel like it needs something else tho. Maybe, "If a spell or ability an opponent controls would put one or more counters on a permanent they control, you may put those counters on ~ instead." That way they can't cheat and get bigger creatures. This guy is the biggest. Not sure about the red tho. This guy feels more WBG to me.

They're all designed to prevent you getting this power effect too early, without just raising his cost. I also took blue out because this doesn't seem to be in it's wheelhouse and removing blue is a great way to reign in any random commander ideas someone might have

Yeah the original version didn't feel blue to me either but global setting of power I could see as tertiary possibly. White first, then either green or black secondary.

ilovesaprolings
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 3 years ago

Wow, didn't think my dream would have sparked so much discussion XD
Happy to have entertained you. All these version are interesting!

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