I've always been wondering what is the relative strength of the following effects:
- Card draw
- Draw quality (Scry, Surveil, etc)
- Temporary draw quality (Library reordering)
- Looting (Draw then discard, for the sake of discussion, let's assume Loot N means "Draw N cards, then discard N cards")
- Rummaging (Discard then draw, for the sake of discussion, let's assume Rummage N means "You may discard up to N cards. If you do, draw that many cards")
Let's compare those effects at 1 cmc:
- Single card draw ("draw a card") is worth less than 1, when it's the main effect. It is most usually accompanied by filter effects. We have Opt at instant speed. Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand (a.k.a. Scry 1.5 + Draw) at sorcery speed. Preordain proved too good. Modern golden standards.
- For Draw quality, at 1, "Scry 3" is about right for instant speed, based on Mystic Speculation. Scry 4 could be possible for sorcery speed.
- Temporary draw quality has Index, a pretty terrible card, I'd argue the effect could be upped to at least 6 cards and/or shifted to Red.
- Looting has Careful Study and the obsolete Faithless Looting. I believe Loot 2 is perfectly balanced at 1 cmc.
- Rummaging is different. Certainly worse than looting. No card costing 1 exists as of today. My shot at the effect would be "Scry 1, then Rummage 2" at sorcery speed and "Rummage 2" at instant speed.
2 cmc:
- "Draw 1 then Loot 1" at sorcery speed (See Beyond, Chart a Course) and almost "Rummage 1 then Draw 1" at instant speed (Thrill of Possibility). Draw 2 is possible, but with drawbacks, usually in Black (Sign in Blood, Costly Plunder)
- "Surveil 5" (Taigam's Scheming) and Shimmer of Possibility at sorcery speed. Anticipate at instant speed. Can we get a Impulse reprint? Looks like not yet.
- More than "Loot 3" at sorcery speed (Ideas Unbound), probably Loot 3 at instant speed would be ok?
- Almost "Rummage 2 then Draw 1" at sorcery speed (Cathartic Reunion).
And the problem: How do these scale with mana? We know how pure draw works, but others? What about other effects, like "discard at random"? Discuss.
Relative worth of CA/CQ
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bravelion83 MKM MCC going on now
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This would be worth of a thesis! A lot of inspiration there, and a lot of work would be needed, but I could be willing to do it. It would require some time though. My first thoughts are the following.
Card draw is obviously the strongest effect between those you mention. In fact, is might easily be the strongest effect in the whole game, period. I'd put looting second for sure, but maybe tied with scry? Anyway, the second and third must be looting and scry. Then at fourth place what you call "temporary draw quality", and I agree with putting rummaging last at the rate they currently do it, and we know they do it intentionally. Maro said that on Blogatog multiple times.
I agree with most of your comparisons. Notes:
Card draw is obviously the strongest effect between those you mention. In fact, is might easily be the strongest effect in the whole game, period. I'd put looting second for sure, but maybe tied with scry? Anyway, the second and third must be looting and scry. Then at fourth place what you call "temporary draw quality", and I agree with putting rummaging last at the rate they currently do it, and we know they do it intentionally. Maro said that on Blogatog multiple times.
I agree with most of your comparisons. Notes:
In fact, when we cite a card, we should always mention what format we're thinking about. I always try to do so as an MCC judge, and it would help so much if everybody always specified what format they're talking about. That's a thing I've always thought.
I think it is. I think scry 3 by itself at "instant speed" and scry 4 at "sorcery speed" could both be acceptable there.
Upped to 6 probably yes. Shifted to red no in my opinion. That feels like planning ahead, and red is the color that plans ahead the least.
I agree.
As I said before, let's remember they intentionally make rummaging in red weaker than looting in blue. Honestly, this is a point where I disagree with them. I'd make rummaging stronger than it is currently.
With their current design philosophy, there never will. The examples you make sound reasonable to me, but they'd never do them for real in my opinion.
Draw with drawbacks is always black, regardless of mana cost.
I clearly remember this getting asked to Maro on Blogatog, and the answer was essentially a "no", not even a "maybe". Anticipate is the new Impulse at Standard power level, for all intents and purposes.
I think so. At . I'm thinking mostly about limited here.
I'd argue we're not even fully sure about card draw. Yes, we have an idea of the baseline, but we've also seen a lot of variations. And this would be the main part of my hypothetical "thesis", an in-depth study about the rate of all the more common effects in Magic. Don't tempt me, Ryder! Too late, you've already tempted me. Ok, one more project to add to the list. But the others take priority! That's what I have for now.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ. | For my projects, including Jeff Lionheart, my murder mystery story "One pierced heart, two mindful horns", and republished articles from my series "The Lion's Lair", see Leo's content index (Last updated on March 24th 2024 - Added OPHTMH Episode 4).
After I'm done republishing my articles I want to reprise the series focusing it more on editing, wording, and templating. Suggest potential future article topics here.
After I'm done republishing my articles I want to reprise the series focusing it more on editing, wording, and templating. Suggest potential future article topics here.
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MCC - Winner (9): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019, Jan Mar 2022, Apr 2023 || Host (30): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2023, Mar 2024 || Judge (58): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), every month from Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar May Jun Sep Dec 2023, Jan Mar 2024
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- SecretInfiltrator
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I'd argue Index should be removed from the game. It makes shuffling "desirable".
An issue with rummage is that on spells you actually have usually no option to choose the number of cards to discard and hence Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice cost the same.
Though Thrill of Possibility also means that the effect still moves.
Haggle helps as a reference. ; )
An issue with rummage is that on spells you actually have usually no option to choose the number of cards to discard and hence Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice cost the same.
Though Thrill of Possibility also means that the effect still moves.
[mention]bravelion83[/mention]
Haggle - nice catch! I doubt it's a good reference though. Profane Insight is pretty bad without context.
I meant things like Vision Skeins, See Beyond or Perilous Research.Draw with drawbacks is always black, regardless of mana cost.
Would you say the same for Cavalier of Gales? Is making shuffling desirable such a bad thing?SecretInfiltrator wrote: ↑4 years agoI'd argue Index should be removed from the game. It makes shuffling "desirable".
Haggle - nice catch! I doubt it's a good reference though. Profane Insight is pretty bad without context.
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a) I don't usually count cards that themselves provide the shuffling and it's definitely more of an issue in the range of cards you talk about: low cmc and the main/whole portion of the effect is IndexRyder wrote: ↑4 years agoWould you say the same for Cavalier of Gales? Is making shuffling desirable such a bad thing?
b) Yes. Any format with Brainstorm makes shuffling more desirable than only top-of-library options/tokens etc. Shuffling creates loading screens that become a big issue in physical play to the extent that the next Eternal format won't have fetchlands.
Players will aim for the optimal play. Don't make sitting around not playing the game the optimal play.
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bravelion83 MKM MCC going on now
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Yes I had understood what you meant, it was just to say that it was perfectly normal for black to draw with drawbacks at that rate, you could find many more examples. I will make some kind of study eventually, I have all the intention to do it even though it is a low priority now to me as you know.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ. | For my projects, including Jeff Lionheart, my murder mystery story "One pierced heart, two mindful horns", and republished articles from my series "The Lion's Lair", see Leo's content index (Last updated on March 24th 2024 - Added OPHTMH Episode 4).
After I'm done republishing my articles I want to reprise the series focusing it more on editing, wording, and templating. Suggest potential future article topics here.
After I'm done republishing my articles I want to reprise the series focusing it more on editing, wording, and templating. Suggest potential future article topics here.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on February 27th 2024)
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Blue = MTGSalvation Green = MTGNexus
MCC - Winner (9): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019, Jan Mar 2022, Apr 2023 || Host (30): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2023, Mar 2024 || Judge (58): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), every month from Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar May Jun Sep Dec 2023, Jan Mar 2024
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (3): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar), Feb Apr 2022 || Host (12): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep Dec 2021, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun 2023
MCC - Winner (9): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019, Jan Mar 2022, Apr 2023 || Host (30): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2023, Mar 2024 || Judge (58): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), every month from Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar May Jun Sep Dec 2023, Jan Mar 2024
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (3): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar), Feb Apr 2022 || Host (12): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep Dec 2021, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun 2023
[mention]barbecube[/mention] just letting you know that Surveil 5 for 2 mana already exists, it's Taigam's Scheming