Relative worth of CA/CQ

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

I've always been wondering what is the relative strength of the following effects:
- Card draw
- Draw quality (Scry, Surveil, etc)
- Temporary draw quality (Library reordering)
- Looting (Draw then discard, for the sake of discussion, let's assume Loot N means "Draw N cards, then discard N cards")
- Rummaging (Discard then draw, for the sake of discussion, let's assume Rummage N means "You may discard up to N cards. If you do, draw that many cards")

Let's compare those effects at 1 cmc:
- Single card draw ("draw a card") is worth less than 1, when it's the main effect. It is most usually accompanied by filter effects. We have Opt at instant speed. Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand (a.k.a. Scry 1.5 + Draw) at sorcery speed. Preordain proved too good. Modern golden standards.
- For Draw quality, at 1, "Scry 3" is about right for instant speed, based on Mystic Speculation. Scry 4 could be possible for sorcery speed.
- Temporary draw quality has Index, a pretty terrible card, I'd argue the effect could be upped to at least 6 cards and/or shifted to Red.
- Looting has Careful Study and the obsolete Faithless Looting. I believe Loot 2 is perfectly balanced at 1 cmc.
- Rummaging is different. Certainly worse than looting. No card costing 1 exists as of today. My shot at the effect would be "Scry 1, then Rummage 2" at sorcery speed and "Rummage 2" at instant speed.

2 cmc:
- "Draw 1 then Loot 1" at sorcery speed (See Beyond, Chart a Course) and almost "Rummage 1 then Draw 1" at instant speed (Thrill of Possibility). Draw 2 is possible, but with drawbacks, usually in Black (Sign in Blood, Costly Plunder)
- "Surveil 5" (Taigam's Scheming) and Shimmer of Possibility at sorcery speed. Anticipate at instant speed. Can we get a Impulse reprint? Looks like not yet.
- More than "Loot 3" at sorcery speed (Ideas Unbound), probably Loot 3 at instant speed would be ok?
- Almost "Rummage 2 then Draw 1" at sorcery speed (Cathartic Reunion).

And the problem: How do these scale with mana? We know how pure draw works, but others? What about other effects, like "discard at random"? Discuss.

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 4 years ago

This would be worth of a thesis! A lot of inspiration there, and a lot of work would be needed, but I could be willing to do it. It would require some time though. My first thoughts are the following.

Card draw is obviously the strongest effect between those you mention. In fact, is might easily be the strongest effect in the whole game, period. I'd put looting second for sure, but maybe tied with scry? Anyway, the second and third must be looting and scry. Then at fourth place what you call "temporary draw quality", and I agree with putting rummaging last at the rate they currently do it, and we know they do it intentionally. Maro said that on Blogatog multiple times.

I agree with most of your comparisons. Notes:
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Preordain proved too good. Modern golden standards.
In fact, when we cite a card, we should always mention what format we're thinking about. I always try to do so as an MCC judge, and it would help so much if everybody always specified what format they're talking about. That's a thing I've always thought.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Scry 4 could be possible for sorcery speed.
I think it is. I think scry 3 by itself at "instant speed" and scry 4 at "sorcery speed" could both be acceptable there.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
I'd argue the effect could be upped to at least 6 cards and/or shifted to Red.
Upped to 6 probably yes. Shifted to red no in my opinion. That feels like planning ahead, and red is the color that plans ahead the least.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
I believe Loot 2 is perfectly balanced at 1 cmc.
I agree.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Rummaging is different. Certainly worse than looting.
As I said before, let's remember they intentionally make rummaging in red weaker than looting in blue. Honestly, this is a point where I disagree with them. I'd make rummaging stronger than it is currently.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
(rummaging) No card costing 1 exists as of today.
With their current design philosophy, there never will. The examples you make sound reasonable to me, but they'd never do them for real in my opinion.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Draw 2 is possible, but with drawbacks, usually in Black
Draw with drawbacks is always black, regardless of mana cost.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Can we get a Impulse reprint? Looks like not yet.
I clearly remember this getting asked to Maro on Blogatog, and the answer was essentially a "no", not even a "maybe". Anticipate is the new Impulse at Standard power level, for all intents and purposes.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
(Ideas Unbound), probably Loot 3 at instant speed would be ok?
I think so. At 1U. I'm thinking mostly about limited here.
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
And the problem: How do these scale with mana? We know how pure draw works, but others? What about other effects
I'd argue we're not even fully sure about card draw. Yes, we have an idea of the baseline, but we've also seen a lot of variations. And this would be the main part of my hypothetical "thesis", an in-depth study about the rate of all the more common effects in Magic. Don't tempt me, Ryder! Too late, you've already tempted me. Ok, one more project to add to the list. But the others take priority! That's what I have for now.
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

I'd argue Index should be removed from the game. It makes shuffling "desirable".
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
- Rummaging is different. Certainly worse than looting. No card costing 1 exists as of today.
Haggle helps as a reference. ; )

An issue with rummage is that on spells you actually have usually no option to choose the number of cards to discard and hence Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice cost the same.

Though Thrill of Possibility also means that the effect still moves.

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

[mention]bravelion83[/mention]
Draw with drawbacks is always black, regardless of mana cost.
I meant things like Vision Skeins, See Beyond or Perilous Research.
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
I'd argue Index should be removed from the game. It makes shuffling "desirable".
Would you say the same for Cavalier of Gales? Is making shuffling desirable such a bad thing?

Haggle - nice catch! I doubt it's a good reference though. Profane Insight is pretty bad without context.

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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Would you say the same for Cavalier of Gales? Is making shuffling desirable such a bad thing?
a) I don't usually count cards that themselves provide the shuffling and it's definitely more of an issue in the range of cards you talk about: low cmc and the main/whole portion of the effect is Index

b) Yes. Any format with Brainstorm makes shuffling more desirable than only top-of-library options/tokens etc. Shuffling creates loading screens that become a big issue in physical play to the extent that the next Eternal format won't have fetchlands.

Players will aim for the optimal play. Don't make sitting around not playing the game the optimal play.

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Post by bravelion83 » 4 years ago

Yes I had understood what you meant, it was just to say that it was perfectly normal for black to draw with drawbacks at that rate, you could find many more examples. I will make some kind of study eventually, I have all the intention to do it even though it is a low priority now to me as you know.
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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

[mention]barbecube[/mention] just letting you know that Surveil 5 for 2 mana already exists, it's Taigam's Scheming ;)

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