[ALT] Giant Spider Invasion

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Alternity is a custom set inspired by old pulp science fiction story poster and book cover art, titles, and language. (That being said, if you know of any pulp styled spider or tarantula art, please share it.) One of the self-imposed design restrictions for Alternity is to use only creature tokens that already exist in Magic ("restrictions breed creativity"). Alternity has ample ways, such as Moon Landing, to generate mana (sources) with which to fuel spells like Giant Spider Invasion.

Moon Landing.jpg
Giant Spider Invasion.jpg

Moon Landing (Common)
1R
Sorcery
Create a tapped land token of any basic type and a 1/1 red Soldier creature token with haste.


Giant Spider Invasion (Uncommon)
XXXG
Instant
Create X 2/4 black Spider creature tokens with reach.
Last edited by Legend 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 348
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

What is a land token? You should provide a reminder text for such a not-so-obvious mechanic.

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
What is a land token? You should provide a reminder text for such a not-so-obvious mechanic.
I admit that it does come across as a little odd at first, but it's hardly indefinite. Is there reminder text for the effect that couldn't and/or shouldn't just be rules text? How would you improve the rules text or word reminder text for the effect? For reference, I adopted and adapted Planewide Celebration's first mode as precedent, which states "Create a 2/2 Citizen creature token that's all colors."
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 348
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

I assumed it doesn't work like a regular land. If it does, then yes, your wording is fine.

However, the whole effect is a colorshifted Rampant Growth (too strong already by modern standards) on steroids.
Not only you get a land of any type regardless of what you included in your deck, but you also get a creature.

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
I assumed it doesn't work like a regular land. If it does, then yes, your wording is fine.
I assume it does based on...
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability "T: Add *mana symbol*," even if the text box doesn't actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, *mana symbol* is W; for Islands, U; for Swamps, B; for Mountains, R; and for Forests, G. See rule 107.4a. See also rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
However, the whole effect is a colorshifted Rampant Growth (too strong already by modern standards) on steroids.
Not only you get a land of any type regardless of what you included in your deck, but you also get a creature.
Is Moon Landing not more like a color shifted Explore than Rampant Growth? (For the record, the mechanic is in development.)
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 348
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
Is Moon Landing not more like a color shifted Explore than Rampant Growth? (For the record, the mechanic is in development.)
Explore puts a land you already have in your hand onto the battlefield. It does nothing if you don't have lands in your hand. Rampant Growth and Moon Landing get you a land unconditionally.

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Ryder wrote:
4 years ago
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
Is Moon Landing not more like a color shifted Explore than Rampant Growth? (For the record, the mechanic is in development.)
Explore puts a land you already have in your hand onto the battlefield. It does nothing if you don't have lands in your hand. Rampant Growth and Moon Landing get you a land unconditionally.
Explore doesn't do "nothing", it cantrips, and Rampant Growth shuffles and thins your deck. I should mention that, in the set file and the OP text, the effect has been changed to create a tapped land. I just haven't updated the OP image yet. I appreciate and don't entirely disagree with your assessment, by the way.
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 348
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 4 years ago

I should be more precise: Explore doesn't ramp/accelerate you if you hold no lands after it cantrips. If you decide to keep the token ramp in Red, I highly recommend a healthy dose of token destroying effects to go with it.

User avatar
SecretInfiltrator
Posts: 5701
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them
Location: The Shattered Realm

Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
Explore doesn't do "nothing", it cantrips,
Replacing itself if you miss. While Moon Landing cannot miss. And in lieu of the cantrip it creates a 1/1 token.

I just had a discussion about how toxic cards like Index and Brainstorm are because they make shuffling "valuable" and "desirable" to players while they actively are undesirable from a designer's perspective concerned with game flow. In a sane environment shuffling is not a benefit, but even when it is deck thinning is minor and both benefits are really well balanced by the fact that for this card to fix mana (in addition to ramping) you don't even need anything but basic Mountains in your deck.

The reason this card is comparable to Rampant Growth are the main metrics: Mana investment: 1C, hand card investment: one card, land count +1 (tapped, now that you change that). With all the minor metrics (deck thinning, shuffling, deck construction considerations, ...) assumed approximately balanced this grants still a whole 1/1 token with haste over Rampant Growth.

That's a lot, I'd argue. Haste makes this card more potent long-term ramp in red than green gets with Farhaven Elf. This shoudn't cost {1}{R} even with both tokens tapped IMO (not that that would fit red any better).

For a good comparison let's look at the weaker (one-time use) Treasure tokens and a 1/1 body without haste in red: Wily Goblin. A more intensive mana cost. Assuming coming untapped is balanced with single-use (and I'd argue the reverse is true) that creature has a "greater" cost without haste. Part of the reason here is that the ramp (one-shot or otherwise) is especially potent at low cmc.

Also am I the only one that things the moon should produces {C}?

Also I suggest using the term basic land type. It's more consistent and once we're talking about custom cards you will want to make certain you don't create problems with other custom cards.

M00NSIDIAN
Posts: 73
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

Red is consistently one of the worst colors at permanent mana acceleration. Making a land token is interesting, but this... is not really how you want to introduce that to the world. This card is green, full stop. If all you did was add, say, C to the cost, this is still a green card. The reasons to increase the cost have already been explained.

Again, it's an interesting idea and I think a land token does fit in with the concept of infinite possibility and a "new frontier" that space travel provides. It's just not very much of a red card.

The spider one is fine.

Anyway, what's the cutoff point for sets to take creature types from for this? Just out of curiosity.

llirremnhoj
Posts: 1
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by llirremnhoj » 4 years ago

maybe if it had a "depletion" counter or something similar that allowed it to tap for one of any color then generic or colorless permanently

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

Sorry for the late replies. Going through a career change, had a birthday, closed on a (tedious) home mortgage loan, and had a death in the immediately family, all on top of the normal responsibilities of life, and all in the month of January.
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
For a good comparison let's look at the weaker (one-time use) Treasure tokens and a 1/1 body without haste in red: Wily Goblin.
Wily Goblin is a precedent not a standard and certainly not the ceiling.
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
Haste makes this card more potent long-term ramp in red than green gets with Farhaven Elf.
You're exactly right. Not sure what I was thinking.
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
Also am I the only one that things the moon should produces C?
You are not. In fact, add C was the original version. But this just happens to be a "moon" flavored card while the mechanic as a whole is about discovering "worlds", whether they be moons or planets. If every land is flavorless and identical, it won't feel very much like discovering new worlds. It feels more like wandering though a wasteland. Plus, though the set is still in fairly early stages, it's currently imagined to easily enable 3 color sealed/draft decks and even up to 5 color draft decks.
M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Red is consistently one of the worst colors at permanent mana acceleration.
And yet generic/colorless artifacts do it rather well. This set will trespass taboo territory by giving ramp to every color in the form of token lands. I plan to do so cautiously, and will share the entire suite of such cards in this forum for inspection.
M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Again, it's an interesting idea and I think a land token does fit in with the concept of infinite possibility and a "new frontier" that space travel provides.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was hoping to read!
M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Anyway, what's the cutoff point for sets to take creature types from for this? Just out of curiosity.
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean, what existing creature types can be used in an outer space themed set?
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
4 years ago
Also I suggest using the term basic land type. It's more consistent and once we're talking about custom cards you will want to make certain you don't create problems with other custom cards.
I'm not sure what you mean. Is my reasoning above not reason enough for the current wording?
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

M00NSIDIAN
Posts: 73
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Anyway, what's the cutoff point for sets to take creature types from for this? Just out of curiosity.
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean, what existing creature types can be used in an outer space themed set?
It's more "I think I misread the post a little." But since you're using only existing creature tokens, are any sets off-limits for your use? Are, say, Hornet tokens too old (originally I was going to ask about Wasps from The Hive, but that was reprinted in 10E and I forgot until that moment), or tentacle tokens too new? Are supplemental expansions off-limits, preventing the use of the very odd black snake tokens?
Last edited by M00NSIDIAN 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

Legend
Aethernaut
Posts: 1639
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Eternity

Post by Legend » 4 years ago

M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
...since you're using only existing creature tokens, are any sets off-limits for your use?
No. Currently, creature tokens ever printed are potential candidates. The more obscure and funky, the better. It's just a matter of making them feel right for the set. Sorry for the late reply. I took some weeks off from designing the set to find about 300 images of retro science fiction literature cover art (that will fit in the art box without lettering and without looking grainy), which was no small task. The next thing to do is narrow the list of potential creature tokens. Any suggestions?
“Comboing in Commander is like dunking on a seven foot hoop.” – Dana Roach

“Making a deck that other people want to play against – that’s Commander.” – Gavin Duggan

"I want my brain to win games, not my cards." – Sheldon Menery

User avatar
Krishnath
Mechanical Dragon
Posts: 3565
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: A cave somewhere in Scandinavia

Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Legend wrote:
4 years ago
M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
...since you're using only existing creature tokens, are any sets off-limits for your use?
No. Currently, creature tokens ever printed are potential candidates. The more obscure and funky, the better. It's just a matter of making them feel right for the set. Sorry for the late reply. I took some weeks off from designing the set to find about 300 images of retro science fiction literature cover art (that will fit in the art box without lettering and without looking grainy), which was no small task. The next thing to do is narrow the list of potential creature tokens. Any suggestions?
Tokens? Unusual you say? Well, there are a few you could use. Like:

Assembly Worker
Two different Wurm tokens from a single card.
A shapeshifter with changeling
Although not rare, the Servo token fits the flavor.
Gremlins
Lizards!
Orb
Starfish
Survivor
A big red Bird
A small Plant
A big white Spirit
And of course, one of my personal favorites, Thrull

There are literally dozens upon dozens of tokens that have only been used one or a few times. It just takes forever to find them all.
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.

Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.

The Commander Legacy Project, Come say hello and give your thoughts.

Like to read? Love books and want to recommend one to your fellow forum users? Go here.

M00NSIDIAN
Posts: 73
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

Need a bigger lizard? Subterranean Tremors offers an 8/8 red biggie.
Wurms are a choice with potential, and there are a ton out there (6/6 and 5/5 greens from many sources, 6/6 black from Penumbra Wurm).
Smaller serpentines? You got snakes (green/blue, black with deathtouch, green with and without deathtouch, black-and-green with deathtouch, not to mention this big boi).
Dune-Brood Nephilim makes 1/1 colorless Sand tokens, which would be potentially interesting for a very aggressive sandstorm. Doesn't Mars have some pretty big dust storms? I'm sure it'd be on-theme.
On the less-obscure but maybe more-flavorful side: there's a metric crapload of golems (3/3, 4/4 and even 9/9) and constructs (including the ever-fun 6/12) for all your needs there.
Then there's a wide variety of insects (of which I'm partial to the "locust" types) for smaller creatures especially in black and green.

It certainly won't be conclusive, but a good way to grab some quick inspiration is to go on Scryfall and just start looking in the "[set name here] tokens" section for each set. A problem is, in a way, that newer tokens tend to be fairly genericized, so this really won't be the most conclusive detective-work if you're looking for funky stuff.

User avatar
Krishnath
Mechanical Dragon
Posts: 3565
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: A cave somewhere in Scandinavia

Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
It certainly won't be conclusive, but a good way to grab some quick inspiration is to go on Scryfall and just start looking in the "[set name here] tokens" section for each set. A problem is, in a way, that newer tokens tend to be fairly genericized, so this really won't be the most conclusive detective-work if you're looking for funky stuff.
Also works on gatherer, just select a set in the drop down menu, write "token" in the search field, and click in "text" instead of "name".
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.

Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.

The Commander Legacy Project, Come say hello and give your thoughts.

Like to read? Love books and want to recommend one to your fellow forum users? Go here.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Custom Cards”