miscellaneous card design discussion thread

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folding_music
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
Would Skulk make sense in a multiplayer set (like conspiracy) where biggest creature matters is a theme? Could it convey a scurrying underfoot feeling? To me it seems like it could be a nice consolation prize while you're still looking to looking to have the big boy. Help me out y'all. Thanks
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
Personally, I think it would be fine in that context. But you'd also need a way for the person who decides to go with the skulk creatures to deal with the large creatures of their opponents, either temporarily, or permanently.
A big creatures-matter theme suffuse with skulkers makes me imagine Duel Decks: Kithkin vs Giants, teehee.
gives me an idea for today's DCC actually!

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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Can an ability like that of Orochi Ranger be worded "Creatures damaged by ~ become tapped and exerted." If not, why? Is it an inherent rules meaning issue? To clarify, I don't mean errata I just mean could some cards be worded that way and be rules-legal?

Toxic Snake gu
Creature — Snake
Toxin (Creatures damage by this become tapped and exerted.)
2/2

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

^ I certainly use the Exerted tokens from the Amonkhet set for exactly that purpose! Stuff tapped by Grip of the Roil in my mind is exerted, excepting that there are one or two cards which trigger upon one of your creatures becoming exerted eg. Battlefield Scavenger.

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Post by spacemonaut » 4 years ago

BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
Can an ability like that of Orochi Ranger be worded "Creatures damaged by ~ become tapped and exerted." If not, why? Is it an inherent rules meaning issue? To clarify, I don't mean errata I just mean could some cards be worded that way and be rules-legal?

Toxic Snake gu
Creature — Snake
Toxin (Creatures damage by this become tapped and exerted.)
2/2
It's the same effect but it'd be a flavor fail to use Exerted that way. It's nowadays a blue effect called freeze and that tends to be its flavor: you've been frozen. (Lockdown sometimes but doesn't always have the same flavor.) The flavor of exert is you're striving hard and pushing yourself to the very limit—such as to prove to the Gods that you're worthy of the Final Reward. That's not something these cards are doing. Even a Toxic Snake didn't make you exert yourself, it's just poisoning you. Flavor execution and mechanical execution are both equally important.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

"Creatures damaged by this become tapped and frozen until the beginning of your next upkeep. (A frozen creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.)"
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Thanks space. I'd like to add:

The flavor of exert in Amohkhet was that. The flavor of the word exert itself is being exhausted — whether or not you caused it yourself. Toxins — including snake venom — have myriad side effects. Exhaustion is only one of them. For that reason, I'm thinking about making Toxin an ability word so that different creature types could have toxins with different side effects.
Last edited by BOVINE 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Morpic_Tide » 4 years ago

Perhaps "Toxin - Tap and Exert creatures dealt damage by this creature", then? As Ability Words are the italicized non-mechanically-defining things, like Undergrowth or Radiance.

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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
Perhaps "Toxin - Tap and Exert creatures dealt damage by this creature", then? As Ability Words are the italicized non-mechanically-defining things, like Undergrowth or Radiance.
That'd be one. I wonder if it needs "dealt" in there.

Toxin – Tap and exert creatures damaged by this {spell/creature}.

Red might have a "fury toxin"

Toxin – Goad creatures damaged by this {spell/creature}.

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

I like Bovine's idea for toxin and I always think of extended creature tapping as green because I'm a Fallen Empires nerd and time has not elapsed since then. Freezing is interesting but it just seems so over-the-top in terms of flavour. If you get frozen you probably die!

PS I was wondering if this place had a discord, or if there was a hold-over one from earlier forums? I feel like most people here know each other already and feel a bit of an outsider.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
I like Bovine's idea for toxin and I always think of extended creature tapping as green because I'm a Fallen Empires nerd and time has not elapsed since then. Freezing is interesting but it just seems so over-the-top in terms of flavour. If you get frozen you probably die!

PS I was wondering if this place had a discord, or if there was a hold-over one from earlier forums? I feel like most people here know each other already and feel a bit of an outsider.
Some of us are veterans from way back to the early days of the MTGcommunities and we recognize each other from back then. Heck, I remember the Phyrexia.com civil war that ended when Sephiroth begged for admin powers, got them, and instantly deleted the entire forum. Word to the wise, if someone asks for mod/admin powers, they're the exact kind of person who should not have them.

In general, just be friendly and honest with other posters, don't be a dick, and have fun. It's the fastest way to make friends on the forums. :)
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
I was wondering if this place had a discord
I couldn't find one. If a Discord for the CCC isn't a thing maybe we should start one. I for one can convey my thoughts much more clearly verbally

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

that might be an idea :3 I was sorta worried I'd already pissed a few people off with my custom set thread. Just trying to be a good forumite!

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
that might be an idea :3 I was sorta worried I'd already pissed a few people off with my custom set thread. Just trying to be a good forumite!
Forum is still new, so if it feels like it is going slow at times it's because there aren't as many members yet. Give it time. :)
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Here's a card for a custom Cubelet. 100 Singleton nonland cards. A single shared library. Multiplayer FFA.

Aspect of Ooze
bgu
Enchantment — Aura
This spell costs 2 more to cast if it targets an opponent.

Enchant player

Whenever a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield under enchanted player's control, you may have it enter with no abilities. If you do, it speciates mutates twice. (It randomly gains deathtouch, flying, hexproof, lifelink, trample, or vigilance, twice.)
Last edited by BOVINE 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Interesting card, but I feel like the ability should be called "mutates" instead, as it is a lot more accurate. Plus it gives you the ability to do something like this:

Spontaneous Mutation GU
Instant (Common)
Target creature mutates (it randomly gains deathtouch, flying, hexproof, lifelink, trample, or vigilance.)
Draw a card.
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Thanks Krish. Mutate sounds simic to me and this set is set on Muraganda where natural evolution is happening. Speciation is captured well here imo. What do you think of the cards numbers and play implications?

Edit: :grin: I designed that one without the cantrip.

Edit 2: actually mutate sounds pretty good. Speciate sounds like it would want to add or change creature types in some way.

Edit 3 for rules clarification: How do i determine when to use "When you do," vs "If you do,"? Thanks

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks Krish. Mutate sounds simic to me and this set is set on Muraganda where natural evolution is happening. Speciation is captured well here imo. What do you think of the cards numbers and play implications?

Edit: :grin: I designed that one without the cantrip.

Edit 2: actually mutate sounds pretty good. Speciate sounds like it would want to add or change creature types in some way.

Edit 3 for rules clarification: How do i determine when to use "When you do," vs "If you do,"? Thanks
Mutation is another word for the process of natural evolution, something that happens in all creatures. It is also useful for noting sudden changes in species, which is what the mechanic does. It can easily exist in all colors, but being primary in the Simic colors, plus it is also more descriptive than speciate.

As for when vs. if, personally I use "when" if it is an action you *have* to perform, while I use "if", when it is an action that is optional. It works well. Basically, if the card says "may", then it is "if".
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Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

The original design I was going to throw in here is one I need to workshop a little (was a powerful creature with no casting cost -- sounded good until I remembered Aether Vial, I'm really bad about designing stuff in a vacuum), so here's this instead for now...
Powerstone Dagger
4
Artifact - Equipment

Equipped creature gets +4/+0 as long as ~ is untapped.

T: Add C.

Equip CC


I worry this could veer into violating the rule of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Equipment doesn't tap when a creature attacks, we all know this, but I think a large amount of people still tap the entire pile of the creature and its equipment, unless they have a specific reason not to (e.g. Clock of Omens is in play). So this could cause some issues, probably.
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
I think the white and green aspects of Marisi are represented in the first ability, the ability to prevent spells from being cast during combat is a very white (and to a lesser extent green) thing to do.
Green might not be able to do it, but it likes having the ability. Green may have the best stat buffs, but it can be one of the colors hurt the most by players casting spells mid-combat. What good is stacking craploads of Giant Growths if your opponent is just going to Doom Blade your dude?

That said, I feel like it could be gotten away with in GW, or any other G+, control. A similar ability was seen on Basandra, Battle Seraph. So the first ability is very Naya. Second is mostly red.

Also it's interesting to see a mechanic that's "randomly select from a group of these defined things" in a card design. I experimented with that a little bit for some projects, too (mostly by including the old MicroProse PC game exclusive card Gem Bazaar in a set where it fit for flavor reasons). Good forward thinking on making it one of six abilities there [mention]BOVINE[/mention]. Are you mostly using this for Sultai? (otherwise lifelink is the odd one out on what my brain is parsing as an extremely Simic ability)

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
The original design I was going to throw in here is one I need to workshop a little (was a powerful creature with no casting cost -- sounded good until I remembered Aether Vial, I'm really bad about designing stuff in a vacuum), so here's this instead for now...
Powerstone Dagger
4
Artifact - Equipment

Equipped creature gets +4/+0 as long as ~ is untapped.

T: Add C.

Equip CC


I worry this could veer into violating the rule of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Equipment doesn't tap when a creature attacks, we all know this, but I think a large amount of people still tap the entire pile of the creature and its equipment, unless they have a specific reason not to (e.g. Clock of Omens is in play). So this could cause some issues, probably.
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
I think the white and green aspects of Marisi are represented in the first ability, the ability to prevent spells from being cast during combat is a very white (and to a lesser extent green) thing to do.
Green might not be able to do it, but it likes having the ability. Green may have the best stat buffs, but it can be one of the colors hurt the most by players casting spells mid-combat. What good is stacking craploads of Giant Growths if your opponent is just going to Doom Blade your dude?

That said, I feel like it could be gotten away with in GW, or any other G+, control. A similar ability was seen on Basandra, Battle Seraph. So the first ability is very Naya. Second is mostly red.

Also it's interesting to see a mechanic that's "randomly select from a group of these defined things" in a card design. I experimented with that a little bit for some projects, too (mostly by including the old MicroProse PC game exclusive card Gem Bazaar in a set where it fit for flavor reasons). Good forward thinking on making it one of six abilities there BOVINE. Are you mostly using this for Sultai? (otherwise lifelink is the odd one out on what my brain is parsing as an extremely Simic ability)
Green has played in the "restrict spellcasting" space before. While it may or may not be appropriate for standard, it is a very green thing to do flavorwise, and has been part of greens color identity since at least Mirage block. The problem is that is very, very rare that they use casting restrictions like this so it is hard to say just how green of an ability it is these days.
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
Edit 3 for rules clarification: How do i determine when to use "When you do," vs "If you do,"? Thanks
"When you do" is used if the effect following is has a target that you don't necessarily need chosen as the first part of the ability resolves e. g. Heart-Piercer Manticore doesn't require you to choose a target before you even sacrifice the creature (with "If you do" you'd have to choose all targets as the ability goes on the stack).

Another situation where "When you do" is used is if your ability in itself is not triggered or activated, but you want part of it to use the stack (to be interactive), so you create a triggered ability within e. g. all kind of exert-on-attack creatures don't necessarily have targets (though some have and for consistency alone using "When you do" on all of them is nice anyway), but all use "When you do".

The rule of thumb with a choice is kinda correct, but extremely incorrect for e. g. a triggered ability where the first half is a nontargeted drawback (and should be mandatory), but the second half is a targeted pay-off:

At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice another creature. When you do, target creature an opponent controls gets -3/-3.


Targets after "When you do" are not chosen for the upkeep-triggered ability, so you cannot avoid sacrificing another creature if you control one (generally...) But once you do, you get the second triggered ability and choose targets... if there are any.

Now with "If you do" you might control this and another creature and your opponents control no creatures. The target has to be chosen immediately, but since there is no legal targeted the whole ability does not go onto the stack and you get around the sacrifice - which is in this case not intended.

But on the other hand Heart-Piercer Manticore also uses it, despite a may. And Glorybringer has to use it, since a static ability cannot target.

tl;dr: The three most important things "When you do" does are:
  • Delay the choosing of targets
  • Enable choosing targets in a static ability
  • Create an additional chance to interact with abilities since it forces part of an ability to use the stack (a second time if already part of a triggered/activated ability).
Most important situation not to use "When you do": If the part you are introducing is done during a complex act that should not be interrupted by passing priority and people playing spells and abilities in reaction e. g. while searching your library, scrying, making piles etc. The "When you do" part will only happen after an opponent had a chance to play spells and the entire rest of the effect (e. g. shuffling for a search) has occurred, so it cannot interact with e. g. you looked at before shuffling.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

A much more cohesive answer than I was able to give, thanks. :)
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Are you mostly using this for Sultai? (otherwise lifelink is the odd one out on what my brain is parsing as an extremely Simic ability)
Thanks Moon. Yes, Mutate is my Sultai mechanic. It can't appear on only b cards though. It started out being GU only but I wanted six evergreen keywords and it was really hard to select the ones that felt like a creature was going down a different path. For everyone here, I'm all ears on the six abilities you would choose.

Deathtouch - Toxic, barbed, bacterial infection
Flying - flight
Hexproof - hide, magic immunity
Linklink - carnivorous ways like for venus flytraps, insects, or plain ol feeding
Trample - brutish perhaps taking the path of a Feral Krushok, or maybe something like an ooze that you could only stop a little of at a time
Vigilance - vigilant, heightened senses,

Lifelink is the ability I kept flipping between with reach. There are multiple problems if I made it reach so I decided lifelink. Menace doesn't feel like an evolutionary path in my mind.
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
A much more cohesive answer than I was able to give, thanks.
Krish, you were still helpful. Thanks SecretInfiltrator.

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Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks Moon. Yes, Mutate is my Sultai mechanic. It can't appear on only b cards though. It started out being GU only but I wanted six evergreen keywords and it was really hard to select the ones that felt like a creature was going down a different path. For everyone here, I'm all ears on the six abilities you would choose.

Deathtouch - Toxic, barbed, bacterial infection
Flying - flight
Hexproof - hide, magic immunity
Linklink - carnivorous ways like for venus flytraps, insects, or plain ol feeding
Trample - brutish perhaps taking the path of a Feral Krushok, or maybe something like an ooze that you could only stop a little of at a time
Vigilance - vigilant, heightened senses,

Lifelink is the ability I kept flipping between with reach. There are multiple problems if I made it reach so I decided lifelink. Menace doesn't feel like an evolutionary path in my mind.
I feel like this is a pretty good list. Menace would be tough, maybe characterized as some feature that would make predators disinterested in some way (e.g. spines) or a second head -- although that's a pretty radical change. Reach would be a really underwhelming roll imo so it's fair to leave it out; it's an inherently defensive mechanic with no offensive benefits (yes, hexproof arguably kind of lacks for those but it will keep your beefier creatures alive), which you would want on very specific creatures (unlike vigilance, which is basically okay on anything).

Lifelink isn't much of a thing in green at the moment (see this list), but I think it could be used. I also think it's more readily characterized as blood-sucking than carnivorousness, so it might be hard to get on-theme unless it's through more magical means.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Lifelink is at most a bend for green, it is the secondary straight lifegain color after all.
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Post by marioguy3 » 4 years ago

I have just thought of a new custom card using the keyword "cipher." Hearing chatter about that ability earlier in the thread made me think of a card that might fit. Critique would be appreciated.

Masterful Toxicity
Sorcery - Rare
Target player draws a card and gets a poison counter.
Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of this card without paying its mana cost.)
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