miscellaneous card design discussion thread

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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

spacemonaut wrote:
4 years ago
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
I don't really think that a book written in the early 18th century is old enough to be considered a fairy-tale. >.<
Fairy tales don't have to be especially old; for example we do have modern fairy tales. There are sources that consider The Little Mermaid to be a fairy tale.
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
As for craft, remember, it only copies tokens, so it can't hit True Conviction (unless of course you have a way to make a token copy of one, and as far as I am aware even then it doesn't stack, so it wouldn't really break it either if you managed to do it, remember the ability can only copy *your* tokens). There are a handful of enchantment tokens, a few of them are enchantment creatures, and then there are Estrid's mask tokens, which are auras. There are a lot more artifact tokens though.
Yep, that's all fair.
Krishnath wrote:
4 years ago
White seems like a reasonable color for it. Primary white and blue, secondary red and black, distant tertiary green?
I think white/red/blue all sound right, black and green might not get involved unless it's a major theme for a set (like fabricate in Kaladesh).

If we did divide it up into two mechanics, one handling enchantments and one handling artifacts, I'd assign the artifacts to blue/red/white, and the enchantments to white/green/blue, in no particular order.
Well, H.C. Andersen was clearly inspired by old folk tales when he wrote his books, so you are without a doubt correct.

I don't think I want to divvy it up into two mechanics, there aren't enough enchantment tokens to make it viable for one. I did consider "noncreature token", but that would very quickly get silly with a certain blue planeswalker...

I think White/red/blue sounds about right for the mechanic, with a few small forray's into green and black depending on the sets themes. If the set has a lot of enchantment token generation compared to artifacts, then green certainly would have access to the mechanic.
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Post by Morpic_Tide » 4 years ago

M00NSIDIAN wrote:
4 years ago
Slight problem: Unearthed creatures aren't cast from the graveyard.
Hence the ETB effect. The conditional Hexproof only triggers on casting from hand, it isn't meant for Unearth anyway, but it covers other shenanigans that could cast it from non-hand zones.
Hexproof on hand-cast is kind of mediocre, though (even if you extend it until the beginning of your next turn, which would really help it get a chance to attack).
It prevents it from being Countered, which assures the ETB trigger. That's a pretty significant upside, and it forces control decks to use their typically-more-limited removal options.
spacemonaut wrote:
4 years ago
You might want an "or less than".
Why do I keep forgetting this?
spacemonaut wrote:
4 years ago
This is 25pt text, which is tiny. Text below 28pt doesn't tend to exist on non-planswalker cards. That's a signal to tone things down.

If we trim off some more tangential parts of the card we wind up with a more comfortable 33pt. These might not be the bits you'd trim down, it's just an example.
Hmm... The thing is that the hand-cast benefit is part of the design. Maybe a more direct cast-from-graveyard wording?

Spellfire Pheonix 2uu
Creature - Pheonix
Flying
When Spellfire Pheonix enters the battlefield, you may cast target Instant or Sorcery spell with converted mana cost equal to or less than the total of and spent on Spellfire Pheonix from your graveyard.
If you cast Spellfire Pheonix from your hand, it gains Hexproof until end of turn.
Unearth Xrrr
3/2

---

This changes it to an immediate property, rather than having the option to do so until the end of turn, similar to Dreadhorde Arcanist, which establishes precedence as superceding the timing rules of the targeted spell and thus saving any wording for that effect. Needing to pay the mana cost makes it one of the worst, but unlike the rest so far, you get a flying body with it, and its hand cast benefit is being uncounterable and immune to same-turn targeted removal, assuring the spell recovery at a cost of about 1 mana over the statline.

Having found a WotC article about the mechanical color pie, I now have a good resource for stuff to use for Black-hand/Green-grave and Red-hand/White-grave. Of course, I'll save those for later as other people get some ideas in. And so I can figure out what kind of combat trick to give Red/White, and how to handle the land stuff I want to do with Black/Green.

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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
It prevents it from being Countered, which assures the ETB trigger. That's a pretty significant upside, and it forces control decks to use their typically-more-limited removal options.
Not in the slightest. Hexproof only functions on the battlefield. If you want to say "This spell can't be countered" just say that.

Also problematic is the fact that unearth doesn't cause you to cast the card from the graveyard. To do what you want to with this card you have to do significant rewording.
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Post by spacemonaut » 4 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
Having found a WotC article about the mechanical color pie, I now have a good resource for stuff to use for Black-hand/Green-grave and Red-hand/White-grave. Of course, I'll save those for later as other people get some ideas in. And so I can figure out what kind of combat trick to give Red/White, and how to handle the land stuff I want to do with Black/Green.
That article is gold for card design. I'm glad you've found it!
void_nothing wrote:
4 years ago
Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
It prevents it from being Countered, which assures the ETB trigger. That's a pretty significant upside, and it forces control decks to use their typically-more-limited removal options.
Not in the slightest. Hexproof only functions on the battlefield. If you want to say "This spell can't be countered" just say that.

Also problematic is the fact that unearth doesn't cause you to cast the card from the graveyard. To do what you want to with this card you have to do significant rewording.
Yeah, when it enters the battlefield after being Unearthed, you'll have spent no amount of mana to cast it. :( It doesn't work like Flashback.

I think you could do this:
Spellfire Pheonix 2UU
Creature — Pheonix
This spell can't be countered.
Flying
When Spellfire Pheonix enters the battlefield, you may cast target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost X or less from your graveyard, where X is the total of and spent to cast Spellfire Phoenix or pay its unearth cost.
Unearth XRRR
3/2
(Capitalisation guideline: subtypes get capitalised, no other types do. So "instant or sorcery", "legendary Zombie creature", etc. I don't know why they do it that way, but they do.)

Despite your concerns about having to pay for the card, it will be pretty nice. Skullcrack; next turn Spellfire Phoenix for 2UU, Skullcrack, attack and the phoenix dies; next turn unearth RRR, Skullcrack. :)

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Post by JovialJovian » 4 years ago

What are the limits to putting Changeling on existing creature templates? The original changelings were decidedly underpowered compared to their non-changeling versions (Skeletal Changeling vs Drudge Skeletons), but the modern horizons changelings are basically identical (Venomous Changeling vs Giant Scorpion).
Is that a sign that Changeling is a 0-mana additive, or are we just restricting it to low-impact applications?

Furious Changeling R
Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling
Haste
1/1

Changeling Mimic 3U
Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling
You may have ~ enter the battlefield as a copy of another creature on the battlefield, except it has Changeling.
0/0

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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Short answer - I regard changeling as a zero-mana addition at least presently.

Long answer - If a red small creature were in a setting with both Humans and Goblins, I don't think it'd cost any more mana if it happened to be made a Goblin. Changeling is typically only valuable insofar as it can stand in for a valuable creature type, and while it does make for much greater deckbuilding flexibility, there's a small number of creature types that matter in each color anyhow and it's nothing that should add mana to the cost.
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Post by M00NSIDIAN » 4 years ago

Creature type tends to not influence creature cost that much. Even slivers tend to not get any kind of type-related surcharge, and you'd think that would be the type to get it. Odds are good that changeling will not influence cost in most cases. Not by modern design standards, anyway, which are admittedly more favorable to creatures than they were in Lorwyn (every color now except blue has gotten a straight-up bear, and frankly, I think blue could get one, too -- it probably just would rather have something cooler).

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Post by JovialJovian » 4 years ago

I ask in part becuase I have interest in Dragon decks, as tribal payoffs for Dragons are very strong, but with most Dragons themselves being quite costly, low-cost changelings can deliver on those payoffs more easily.

Crucible of Fire looks better the more Dragons there are that cost less than 4, for example.

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Post by Dragonlover » 4 years ago

Yeah, it depends what the payoff is. As you say, Crucible is great as a curve topper, but Lathliss, Dragon Queen doesn't really care. Obviously if you can drop two dragons in a turn she's better, but one isn't exactly shabby. Feel free to check out my Lathliss deck btw, just bear in mind it's still not fully honed.

We were discussing 'bits of design we're bad at' earlier in the thread, and I found another one: Flavour text. I'm terrible at coming up with flavour text.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

JovialJovian wrote:
4 years ago
I ask in part becuase I have interest in Dragon decks, as tribal payoffs for Dragons are very strong, but with most Dragons themselves being quite costly, low-cost changelings can deliver on those payoffs more easily.

Crucible of Fire looks better the more Dragons there are that cost less than 4, for example.
That's why red gets Rituals now and cards like Dragonspeaker Shaman, to help offset the cost and payoff of dragons.
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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

thinking about changeling stuff, pro- and anti-:

The Hedley Kow ub
Creature - Shapeshifter Beast
Changeling, menace
1/3
//
Awful Alchemy 2ub
Sorcery - Adventure
Transmute. (Then exile this card from your graveyard. You may cast the creature later from exile.)

Genehex b
Enchantment
As Genehex enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. When a creature of the chosen type enters the battlefield, sacrifice Genehex and destroy that creature.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Where's the transmute cost for Awful Alchemy? Also, what does it actually do?

(Transmute is a keyword action that costs mana to allow you to pay the cost and discard the card to search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as the discarded card.)

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Sear ... transmute]
Last edited by Krishnath 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Right, transmute is not a keyword action so it can't coherently be put as the only text on a spell. Do you mean "search your library for a card with converted mana cost 4..."?
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Post by Morpic_Tide » 4 years ago

Transmute is also a Cycle variant, not an alternate casting, so it still doesn't work with Adventure, so it really does need to be spelled out on every level. There's also the question of the CMC of Adventure cards, which, if they're implemented as a variant of Split cards, would make this CMC 6. And, as a result, actually a decent value, paying four to fetch a six-mana card, which is where a lot of game-enders live.

I found out about this while looking for a way to make a godsend card for Atemsis, by the way. Lets you get a really big CMC without making the card unplayable. I went with a fetch and an evade.

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

^ oh, right. I just stubbornly wanted Transmute to work cos it's the exact effect I wanted already written out in an ability, just with a different set-up. That's why I added "from your graveyard" to the reminder text - i'm always a "spirit of the ability is more meaningful than its syntax" kinda person and, hey, if they released this card they would simultaneously expand the ability to make it make sense, right? but thanks for the correction! I was kinda meaning "find a card that costs two or four" so the game's rules actually make less sense to me than ever.

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Post by JovialJovian » 4 years ago

What do you get when you cross Phyrexian Colossus with the Planar Bridge?

A new generation of planar invaders.

Portal Crawler 6
Artifact - Vehicle
~ doesn't untap during your untap step.
Menace
When ~ attacks, you may search your library for a permanent card and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. If that permanent is a creature, it enters the battlefield tapped and attacking instead.
6: Untap ~
Crew 6
6/6

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

It's a bit late, but this thread needs to be on the first page so people see it...

As for Portal Crawler, that card can be very abusable in the right deck. A rare for certain, and I wouldn't be surprised if it got bumped to mythic. The ability to fetch a blightsteel colossus and put it onto the battlefield tapped and attacking is nothing to sneer at, particularly in commander where a surprise like that can end games.
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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

Yeah Portal Crawler is pretty onerous to use but it's probably bound to be an instawin when used. Still an interesting design though.
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Post by Morpic_Tide » 4 years ago

It requires 6 power of other creatures and 6 mana. If it had a slightly more restrictive setup, such as "search your library for a permanent, reveal it, then put it into your had or put a permanent from your hand onto the battlefield", it'd be fine, but as it is, it easily comes out too soon to immediately fetch and play and attacking. Turn 4 Blightsteel Colossus swings aren't out of the question, here, thanks to the Urzatron lands.

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Post by Krishnath » 4 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
It requires 6 power of other creatures and 6 mana. If it had a slightly more restrictive setup, such as "search your library for a permanent, reveal it, then put it into your had or put a permanent from your hand onto the battlefield", it'd be fine, but as it is, it easily comes out too soon to immediately fetch and play and attacking. Turn 4 Blightsteel Colossus swings aren't out of the question, here, thanks to the Urzatron lands.
The thing is, it is resistant to common mass removal (the stuff that removes creatures) in commander, allowing you to bounce back immediately the turn after an opponent has nuked all creatures. All you need to do is drop a six power creature, use it to crew Portal Crawler, and then fetch a Blightsteel to eliminate the player of your choice from the game. Basically, it leads to degenerate gameplay in commander. It is not a fun card to face.
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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

I'm working on the mechanics of a custom format for people who need to travel pretty light. You've probably encountered similar formats, the gist:
2-4 players
100 nonland cards form a single shared library. All other zones are used as normal.
Anytime you could play a land, you may put a card from your hand on the bottom of the library. When you do, create a land token with T: Add one mana of any type.

Anyway, the particular "Domain" (is what im calling the format) Im working on is GUR and devoid of B or W. Like a Shard.
One thing I want to have players do is put a random card from their hand on the bottom of the library to do things. I don't just want to discard randomly because the graveyard isnt a focus and I want to keep the library stocked the best I can.

Though this plane has a lot of weirdness and chaos, how often do players want to disrupt whatever strategy it is they may have? Even though the overall theme contains random elements.

Other elements for your consideration:

In a vacuum, I wonder how often this would trigger and how big N could get but still trigger. It might take for messin around to perturb some slumbering chunker.
Perturb – Whenever the [Nth] spell is cast each turn,...
(might call this Verge or Elicit)

Saboteur
Evoke
Myriad
Manifest
Morph

Also, it's pretty difficult designing these colors without a lot of land interactions. Any ideas to help with that? Players will still be able to interact with the lands on the field but there aren't any lands in the library itself.
B O V I N E

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

that seems fun to me!
BOVINE wrote:
4 years ago
One thing I want to have players do is put a random card from their hand on the bottom of the library to do things. I don't just want to discard randomly because the graveyard isnt a focus and I want to keep the library stocked the best I can.
Sounds like you'd need to pair a gimmick this tough on the hand with a lot of pro-active card draw effects. Less Fact or Fiction, more Ophidian? Vanilla-ish creatures that evoke to the bottom of the library but give you an old-school cantrip in return? You could have a version of Predict which targets the last card in the library instead of the first. Scry with a single library sounds intensely strategic, too.

Would you be including tutor effects into a pile like this or is maintaining the library order more important?

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Post by BOVINE » 4 years ago

Thanks for commenting.

The random card to the bottom will belong to the 8-12 psionic Cyclops creature cards. Perhaps that range will allow the mechanic to feel less harsh and more tribal.

Saboteur effects (combat damage to players) are strongly represented in the stack so you giving the same suggestions makes me more confident that's a good way to go. I definitely want things to be going on. No better way than combat to make it happen.

Another mechanic that appears is: Iterate (Shuffle this card into the library as it resolves.) Pretty sure I'm only going to have this on 5-7 cards. I want Iterate on common yet important effects so that I don't necessarily have to include a ton of redundancy. Drawing, removal, etc. (only playtesting will finally tell)

Scry won't be showing up too much but I definitely will be including at least 1 or 2 of them just so players realize how impactful a single library is with commonly used mechanics.

Edit: Absolutely no tutor effects.
B O V I N E

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Post by folding_music » 4 years ago

BOVINE: have you made anything for the shared deck idea yet? I'd love to see!

how would we word an ability like this:
"Standby - At the end of your turn, scry X, where X is the number of untapped permanents with standby you control."
...so that it only fires once, no matter how many permanents it appears on?

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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

folding_music wrote:
4 years ago
how would we word an ability like this:
"Standby - At the end of your turn, scry X, where X is the number of untapped permanents with standby you control."
...so that it only fires once, no matter how many permanents it appears on?
Maybe... "Plan ahead (At the beginning of your end step, if you haven't planned ahead yet this turn, do a lot of scrying.)"

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