miscellaneous card design discussion thread

[Krishnath]

That card could really quickly get out of hand, particularly considering that you don't need to attack the player that gets the draw and the poison counter.

[SecretInfiltrator]

Isn't menace really, really wide-spread evolutionary? Look at moths with faces on their wings and warning colors, animals with bristling fur, fish and amphibians blowing themselves up to multiple times their size by inhaling water or air, hissing, rattling, growling etc.

[Krishnath]

Isn't menace really, really wide-spread evolutionary? Look at moths with faces on their wings and warning colors, animals with bristling fur, fish and amphibians blowing themselves up to multiple times their size by inhaling water or air, hissing, rattling, growling etc.

Menace = Looking dangerous/tough. From eye-spots, to thorns and bristles, to mimicking something that is actually dangerous. It is very, very common in nature. Most people have seen flies with the coloration of wasps, or butterflies/moths with eyespots on their wings, and then there is the Thorny Devil, looks very dangerous with its thorny hide. It's only really dangerous if you happen to be a small bug or a tiny mammal.

[BOVINE]

https://discord.gg/vTnW3Ed

Here is a Discord link to a channel for MTGNexus Card Creators

I in the Philippines right now with unreliable everything so I'll try to be getting to know people when I can.

Link never expires if anyone wants to put it in signature or something like that. Unofficial but it's a start

[folding_music]

been looking at this card: Sakura-Tribe Springcaller and wondering what a perfect name would be for its ability. (I've always liked this set up for mana creatures - slow, but you get the mana while still having the option to attack. always thought BoP and Llanowar Elves were a bit too good in some ways. Wall of Roots is what I'd call a reasonable mana creature!)

[BOVINE]

Can't believe it's the only creature that ability. There are also a few with vigilance that tap for Mana. There may also be some that don't have vigilance but another vigilance-like ability and still tap for mana. The orochi have some that add Mana equal to damage dealt. That's an interesting way to do it. Perhaps if there was a number to it you could tweak the power level more.

---

Does the Aura created by the -1 of Estrid, the Masked have to be named? If not, what would the physical token call the Aura?

[barbecube]

from the comprules:

111.4. A spell or ability that creates a token sets both its name and its subtype(s). If the spell or ability doesn't specify the name of the token, its name is the same as its subtype(s). A "Goblin Scout creature token," for example, is named "Goblin Scout" and has the creature subtypes Goblin and Scout. Once a token is on the battlefield, changing its name doesn't change its subtype, and vice versa.

[Morpic_Tide]

So, bit of a thought on color-pie-bending (crossposting out of the Mechanic Game):

Deathless Vanguard 3w
Instant
Return target creature in your graveyard with converted mana cost X, where X is the total of and spent on this spell, to the battlefield. If this card was cast from the hand, it must block this turn if able. If this spell was cast from the graveyard, it gains Haste and must attack this turn if able.
Flashback xbb

---

White does have some reanimation effects, so it's not unprecedented to give such to mono-White. Having it be an instant is a bit risky, but it's much more constrained than Unburial Rites, which, for one more, is Sorcery speed, inverts the color requirements, but is entirely unrestricted in revival, a perfect example of where I was going with it. You have to spend the amount of mana needed to cast the creature in specifically White or Black, keeping it less valuable in Dredge, which only has Black mana and uses a lot of Green, so it has to gravecast it (unless they get the one White from an any-color mana dork, which this could be used to reacquire in Selesnya decks. Which is why it has two black) and has to discard it if it ends up stuck in hand, and prevents most of the value reanimator decks seek, that of cheating creatures onto the field at important discounts in mana.

The downsides at least partly fit the color used to cast that "mode", as the forced attack does exist in Black on some creatures, while the forced block fits well with White's defensive focuses. However, being an Instant, this is mostly in the way of a few specific tricks, such as using it to flash-revive some anti-boardwipe creature in response to a board-clearing Sorcery, forcing that creature to then participate in blocking, making it vulnerable to ambushes. Or using it to flash in a utility creature to help with your main phase, as it then requires that creature to attack.

Generally, it's a faster but (usually) weaker reanimation card, in ways that make it not work well with the mainstream reanimation-based decks, but it supports strategies that want cheap creatures out by adding durability to the deck.

[RattingRots]

Hey Morphic_Tide, I like this card a lot, and I think you're too worried about color pie issues - it's definitely fine in either white or black. Personally I would avoid the forced attack/block for the reason you mentioned - there's a very limited scenario where you can't work around them.

Personally I would change it to:

Deathless Vanguard 3w
Instant
Return target creature in your graveyard with converted mana cost X, where X is the total of and spent on this spell, to the battlefield. If this spell was cast from the graveyard, it gains Haste and can't block this turn.
Flashback xbb

IMO the restriction has a closer to intended effect if it's a "can't ___" as opposed to a "you must ___ if able." You also have the added bonus that for the white side, the game rules do the work for and let players use shortcuts to get what the card does.

I think your logic behind the costing is good.

[M00NSIDIAN]

Interesting, if wildly overcomplicated, idea. However, I don't think it's a good idea to have an X flashback cost and an X in the rules text, that's just asking for trouble. Aside from that, there is one thing in particular I hate about this:

The CMC of the target must equal X. So if cast from the hand and have no sources of any mana that's not white or black, I have to target a 4-drop, and if I cast it from the graveyard, I can't get anything that costs less than 2. Unless I play something to change the cost, obvs. If I want to get, say, that Darksteel Myr out of my graveyard to block my opponent's Impervious Greatwurm (it has apparently been an ugly game for me...), I need a Pearl Medallion or a Helm of Awakening or something, or to spend one mana that's neither white nor black -- unless this is in my graveyard already. Again, kind of related to the "overcomplicated" thing.

So my big suggestion, ahead of any other workshopping: "Return target creature card with converted mana cost less than or equal to" etc.

[Morpic_Tide]

Okay, so, missing the "or less" was entirely accidental. The thought of instead having a detriment for graveyard-casting, which prevents a variety of shenanigans in the future, is also more friendly to making a cycle of these effects, which is what I was kinda going for having an opening for. I'll instead go for a hand-cast bonus, which covers some of the other edge cases regarding Exile casts. Each enemy-pair having a card with a shared effect, with the more-associated as the Flashback color, something scaling with on-color mana, and the Flashback having an X in the cost.

So, to apply these changes:

Deathless Vanguard 3w
Instant
Return target creature in your graveyard with converted mana cost equal to or less than the total of and spent on this spell to the battlefield. If this card was cast from the hand, that creature gains +0/+2 until end of turn.

Flashback xbb

Now it makes anything Shock-proof, while also making anything with more than one Toughness come out of Lightning Bolt range. Also negates some of the more common board-clears. Generally gets it through the first turn, outside essentially hard removal.

---

And for the next (which was eaten by a Windows update, alongside a relatively in-depth critique of certain activists in Ontario using their own data), I'll go with Green/Blue, fixing Flash's abuses and using it as the touchstone for Blue (which has such timing manipulation to this day, though usually with the eponymous keyword):

Abrupt Gestation 3g
Instant
Put target creature from your hand that can be cast with the mana spent on Abrupt Gestation onto the battlefield, treating and as mana of any color. If this was cast from your hand, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.

Flashback xuu

---

Keeping to a heavy pattern so far, 3m cast Instant, xnn Flashback, bonus useful to the lower-ceiling handcast in more cases than the higher-ceiling gravecast, this card should solve all the big problems with Flash. It doesn't let you cheat death triggers or ETBs, it costs a lot more (unless you gravecast, for double-blue instead of single), and it partially color fixes. If you cast it from the hand, you get a +1/+1 counter on whatever creature you brought out, giving you a bit more meat to your "smaller" creatures. And ties directly into Simic, no questions asked, while the previous card... At least bolsters the two-of-three death-trigger Orzhov mechanics, even if it isn't in-your-face.

The Green cards it ties into are Chord of Calling and Collected Company, which are also instants, fully color fix and both have tutoring for the creature rather than playing it out of hand. Much, much stronger cards, but then both have done nasty things to their Standard environments and are held back more by even more crazy options in Modern, predominantly surrounding Walking Ballista and/or Urzatron, so I'd say this nerfbat of losing the tutoring is entirely acceptable. Might be usable as a control-resistant substitute for responsiveness in Simic decks, trading the tutoring for being hand access, as you can always directly cast the creature later if this is countered itself.

And the Flashback means you can play it a second time to force them to use two counters if you're interested in one specific creature being Flashed out at a specific time. And a third counterspell if you just want it on the board period and make them burn as much control as possible before the final shot, making them expect, say, Sporeback Troll or Plaxcaster Frogling to shut down their removal when it's actually just Vigean Hydropon being gotten out to set up for late-game creatures like Novijen Sages or shenanigans like Cytoplast Manipulator. And yes, I know this is a lot of Dissension Simic examples, but it's a deck archetype that demonstrates where counterplay gets prickly from the possibilities and there's some notable value to having more stuff in the way of countering your creatures. Slivers would also work, and would love the color fixing property.

[spacemonaut]

Deathless Vanguard is neat. We can change the templating a bit to put the whole "return from graveyard to battlefield" clause together and sort out the condition afterwards, which I think makes the card a bit easier to sort out at first read:

Return target creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield if it has converted mana cost equal to or less than the total of W and B spent to cast this spell. If you cast this spell from your hand, that creature gains +0/+2 until end of turn.

(I've also updated some other templating bits in here like the cast from hand templating.)

---

Abrupt Gestation needs some work. I'm going to do some major revision suggestions of it below. At the end I'm also going to suggest it doesn't actually benefit from being in that "enemy mana spent to cast this spell matters" theme, and would benefit more by being its own card outside that particular cycle you're working on.

There's a couple of gameplay gotchas. First, if I made a mistake while choosing what mana to spend on Abrupt Gestation, and can't put down the creature I wanted, I'm just kinda screwed because it's too late to go back and change the mana I spent. Second, while Abrupt Gestation is on the stack is an ideal time for my opponent to Divest me (or similar), guess the card based on the mana I spent to cast the spell, and leave me with nothing I can actually put down.

Equally importantly: Abrupt Gestation is difficult to manage in our memory during gameplay. To use it, I pick a creature secretly in my hand, then describe the exact mana I'm spending to cast this spell, and I have to remember that combination until the spell resolves possibly a full minute later after my opponents do stuff in response. Then later as I'm putting the creature down I have to verify the mana is valid (while doing some combinatronics with the G and U). That's a lot to deal with memory-wise.

The memory issues are easy enough to manage at a designer's desk when this card and one other are the only things I need to think about, but it's too much to deal with at game time when it's competing for brainpower with all of the rest of the game state I'm trying to hold in my head, my strategy for the turn, what my opponents are doing, and all the other things I'm trying to do and manage. To make matters worse I might have an opponent who either misremembered what I said I spent, or is deliberately gaslighting me, and is saying "no, I thought you said you were spending blue, black, green, colorless to cast that spell." Have you ever had that kind of conversation where someone disagrees with what you remember you said, you've been confused and uncertain, and maybe then completely forgot what you originally thought you said? That's gonna happen.

Essentially, using it correctly means I need to take out a notepad and pen and write down the mana I used to cast it. Needing a notepad and pen to use a card correctly is a sign a card's demanding too much of my memory. (The exception is the "secretly make a note" cards because that's exactly what you're supposed to do.)

I suggest doing this instead:

Abrupt Gestation GU
Instant
The next creature card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash. You may spend G and U as though it were mana of any color to cast that spell. When that creature enters the battlefield this turn, if you cast Abrupt Gestation from your hand, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Flashback GU

Then the only thing you have to remember is "did I cast that spell from my hand?" which is fine. Everything else gets sorted out later at the same time I'm casting the creature and requires no memory expenditure.

Flashback matters less in this scheme, so what if we made the Flashback matter more by making it a cast-from-graveyard rider like the increasing spells?:

Abrupt Gestation GU
Instant
The next creature card you cast this turn can be cast as though it had flash. You may spend G and U as though it were mana of any color to cast that spell. When that creature enters the battlefield this turn, if Abrupt Gestation was cast from a graveyard, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Flashback 3GU

Here's the part where I suggest not making it part of the cycle: I think you should drop that mana expenditure clause in the middle completely. The spell is already OK and powerful without it, requiring you to splash a third color to flash in that Sultai legend, and that's completely reasonable. Also, since you're playing this in GU decks it's already almost equivalent to "you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast that spell", and would do better by reducing complexity to switch to that—but it's powerful enough it doesn't need that either.

I get the "enemy colors spent to cast this spell matters" theme of the cycle. However, I think this is a powerful and neat card without that part (either in your original version or in my revisions) and that part adds major complexity and brainpower demands without significantly improving the card's gameplay. It's held back by being in the cycle rather than improved by it, which is a sign it should very likely just be its own thing without the cycle's requirements.

Can I suggest focusing on a "total of M and N spent to cast this spell" template for this cycle as a creative constraint? It will help you focus your creative energies in a consistent direction. The GU spell could be a Hydra that cares about G and U spent to cast it, for example.

[Morpic_Tide]

Hmm... I can see several possible refund mechanics in replacement of the shared mana spending that'd work better with the first card's phrasing. There's the old "Free" spells from Urza's block, which were all Blue, that untap the lands used to cast them, which is at least excusable in Green given the ramp stuff, which could do much more than only refund it (especially with aforementioned enchants), helping to make up for the loss of tutoring over Collected Company with ramp that can at least work with the existing "meta" green decks, which tend to be Tron variants. Because of Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings. Direct mana adding is actually a Red/Black effect, though, and discounting... Is actually a general effect... But gets a bit weird to track, as you mentioned with casting carryover.

To implement the untap-refund, alongside some of your suggestions:

Abrupt Gestation 2g
Instant
Until end of turn, you may cast your next creature spell as if it had Flash. Untap target lands you control up to the total of and spent on this spell. If you cast this spell from your hand, the next creature spell you cast this turn comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it.

Flashback xuu

---

With that untap, reducing the mana cost by one is a debuff in Tron, the one Modern deck that might reliably snap the refund open, as it keeps you from being able to refund a bit of colored and a Tron set to chain off other important colored spells, while also having it come up earlier so that it's more likely to actually be played. The untap-lands refund also removes the color fixing, as you mentioned it being perfectly useful without, but keeps the idea of being able to just throw it out before whatever creature you want to force some extra Counterspells out of the opponent without really risking mana. Especially if your deck has some decent redundancy.

The biggest issue with using a creature for Green/Blue is that there's no overlap in non-hand casting of creatures, whereas Flashback isn't particularly tied to any one color. Blue/Red has Unearth that could serve this particular function, but other than that, there isn't really a recast keyword shared by opposing colors that applies to permanents. At least not to my recollection. To actually get this one out of the way, I'll be going for Blue-Hand/Red-Grave on graveyard casting spells. Blue typically returns to hand, while Red's been getting more in the way of casting from the grave directly, but the latter does still exist in Blue.

Spellfire Pheonix 2uu
Creature - Pheonix
Flying
When Spellfire Pheonix enters the battlefield, you may exile target Instant or Sorcery spell from your graveyard with converted mana cost equal to the total of and you spent to cast Spellfire Pheonix. Until end of turn, you may cast that card, and you may spend and as if it were mana of any type to cast that spell.
If you cast Spellfire Pheonix from your hand, it gains Hexproof until end of turn.
Unearth Xrrr
3/2

---

I have no idea how the formatting of the effect works out. I tried to model it on Dire Fleet Daredevil. Lacking the bit where it exiles the cast spell does break pattern with how it's done these days, but Ghitu Chronicler exists as an example of Red recovering spells without such an exile condition, and this version of the effect does retain costs needing spent. And, of course, if you fail to cast that card, it's Exiled for good, much as the Red cards that exile from the top of your library do.

The Hexproof on hand-cast nearly assures the creature will survive to see an attack, helping to excuse the poor statline for casting it from hand, while that statline is arguably overdoing it with that effect when talking about the Unearth cost, as the ETB would be basically a free bonus. Works well alongside Blue/Red aggro of both creature and spell-guarded forms, as well as helping out Burn with extras of your burn spells, and Izzit proper thanks to Overload and Replicate being CMC bypasses for effects that'd normally cost a lot more, while Jump Start is basically just up and saying this effect is something they'd love to have.

[M00NSIDIAN]

Slight problem: Unearthed creatures aren't cast from the graveyard.

Aside from that, I like what you're going for and think it's pretty decent. Not quite as good imo as the others, but still pretty solid. Then again, blue/red have some of the strongest crossover, while green/blue has quite possibly the worst (far as I can tell) among the enemy pairs.

Hexproof on hand-cast is kind of mediocre, though (even if you extend it until the beginning of your next turn, which would really help it get a chance to attack). But balancing this out might be a little tough anyway since recasting spells is generally a really powerful effect.

[spacemonaut]

I like the revision. Refund spells are quite powerful, but it would take some work to break it.

The phoenix is neat too. You might want an "or less than". It might be doing too much though:



This is 25pt text, which is tiny. Text below 28pt doesn't tend to exist on non-planswalker cards. That's a signal to tone things down.

If we trim off some more tangential parts of the card we wind up with a more comfortable 33pt. These might not be the bits you'd trim down, it's just an example.



The warning sign to me was that if a card has an ability that's a large paragraph, it can usually only fit 1-2 other lines of rules text in one ability or keyword set. This had three other abilities each taking up 1-2 lines each.

[folding_music]

a way you might shrink it so it fits on a piece of cardboard:
Hereditary recall - When Spellfire Phoenix enters the battlefield, cast target instant or sorcery spell from your graveyard if it could be cast with the mana you spent to cast Spellfire Phoenix.

gets rid of all the "You may" and "until end of turn" stuff which pads the text - more of a "you play this right now or not at all" feel aka Madness. just a suggestion, though!

(im on holiday so I'm posting a lot less)

[JovialJovian]

New mechanics means new design space to explore:

King of the Feast XRGW
Creature - Spirit
As ~ enters the battlefield, create X+3 Food tokens.
~'s power and toughness are each equal to the number of Foods you control.
Whenever you sacrifice a Food, ~ gets +1/+1 and gains vigilance, trample, or haste until end of turn.
*/*

Marshal of the Cavalry 3WWW
Creature - Knight
Vigilance
When ~ enters the battlefield, create three 2/2 white Knight creature tokens with vigilance.
3/3
Knick of Time 1W
Instant - Adventure
Until your next turn, you may cast creature spells as though they had flash.

[void_nothing]

Jesus, Marshal of the Cavalry is a moonshot home run. I love it.

[Krishnath]

Love Marshal of the Cavalry, it's the kind of card I wouldn't mind getting as a rare, or even a mythic. It's a total of 9 power and 9 toughness on the board for 6 mana, and that alone makes it great. The Adventure part is just icing on the cake that takes it from great to magnificent. Well done.

King of the Feast is interesting as well.

[JovialJovian]

Gosh, thanks guys. That's some high praise!

I imagine Marshal as a low-end mythic, I feel it would be oppressive as a rare in a draft setting.
As per the theme of Eldraine, it's based on a classic legend. In this case, it's the "classic" Ride of the Rohirrim, who arrived just in the knick of time to the battles of Helm's Deep.

Food tokens are frankly, not great. The quality of the mechanic is going to hinge on what the cards that use them can do. So the King here comes with an entire feast, and wants you to eat it, gaining keywords from the feasting, and not losing the stats until the following turn.
Concept is based on the Spirit of Christmas Present and his throne of food, also the way he wastes away by the night's end. He's got no base stats, when you've finished the feast, the king fades away. The complexity and potential makes me think it would have to be a rare.

[spacemonaut]

They're both fantastic.

Eldraine was based on fairy tales and camelot, not just classic legends. But it's still a great fit in that context: lots of fairy tales have people and monsters arriving in the knick of time (and knights arriving later, lol).

Food tokens aren't great, but people thought clues weren't great either. I agree it'll be dependent on what in the environment interacts with them.

[Krishnath]

They're both fantastic.

Eldraine was based on fairy tales and camelot, not just classic legends. But it's still a great fit in that context: lots of fairy tales have people and monsters arriving in the knick of time (and knights arriving later, lol).

Food tokens aren't great, but people thought clues weren't great either. I agree it'll be dependent on what in the environment interacts with them.

It's also based on H.C. Andersen's works, with a reference to the little mermaid already revealed as a common. I would not be surprised to see a few references to the works of Lewis Carroll either.

And for the record, I love both Clues and Food (and Treasure, and Mask tokens), bring on more noncreature tokens! I am just sad that populate doesn't work with it, so I invented a new mechanic that does! Craft!

Dwarf Artisan 2R
Creature - Dwarf Artificer (Common)
When Dwarf Artisan enters the battlefield, Craft (Create a token that's a copy of an artifact or enchantment token you control.)
1/2

Ok, it's basically Populate but instead of copying creature tokens, it copies artifact or enchantment tokens. Simple, elegant, and could be fun to play. Logically It'd be primary in blue and secondary in red. But I could see it in other colors as well, particularly black.

[spacemonaut]

It's also based on H.C. Andersen's works, with a reference to the little mermaid already revealed as a common. I would not be surprised to see a few references to the works of Lewis Carroll either.

For sure — but The Little Mermaid is a fairy tale. I don't think Lord of the Rings is generally considered to be a fairy tale.

Ok, it's basically Populate but instead of copying creature tokens, it copies artifact or enchantment tokens. Simple, elegant, and could be fun to play. Logically It'd be primary in blue and secondary in red. But I could see it in other colors as well, particularly black.

I love Dwarf Artisan and this Craft mechanic.

Also white! White would be interested in making copies of enchantment and artifact tokens. It gets populate, so it could probably get craft.

Part of me feels Craft should be limited to artifacts because of flavor reasons, with enchantment tokens being handled by a separate mechanic. (I can see an artificer crafting new Masks, but not so much "crafting" other forms of magical force like True Conviction.) But enchantment tokens are going to be so rare we'd be unlikely to see such a mechanic ever come up, so another part of me is fine with them having an outlet in Craft.

[Krishnath]

It's also based on H.C. Andersen's works, with a reference to the little mermaid already revealed as a common. I would not be surprised to see a few references to the works of Lewis Carroll either.

For sure — but The Little Mermaid is a fairy tale. I don't think Lord of the Rings is generally considered to be a fairy tale.

Ok, it's basically Populate but instead of copying creature tokens, it copies artifact or enchantment tokens. Simple, elegant, and could be fun to play. Logically It'd be primary in blue and secondary in red. But I could see it in other colors as well, particularly black.

I love Dwarf Artisan and this Craft mechanic.

Also white! White would be interested in making copies of enchantment and artifact tokens. It gets populate, so it could probably get craft.

Part of me feels Craft should be limited to artifacts because of flavor reasons, with enchantment tokens being handled by a separate mechanic. (I can see an artificer crafting new Masks, but not so much "crafting" other forms of magical force like True Conviction.) But enchantment tokens are going to be so rare we'd be unlikely to see such a mechanic ever come up, so another part of me is fine with them having an outlet in Craft.

I don't really think that a book written in the early 18th century is old enough to be considered a fairy-tale. >.<

As for craft, remember, it only copies tokens, so it can't hit True Conviction (unless of course you have a way to make a token copy of one, and as far as I am aware even then it doesn't stack, so it wouldn't really break it either if you managed to do it, remember the ability can only copy *your* tokens). There are a handful of enchantment tokens, a few of them are enchantment creatures, and then there are Estrid's mask tokens, which are auras. There are a lot more artifact tokens though.

White seems like a reasonable color for it. Primary white and blue, secondary red and black, distant tertiary green?

[spacemonaut]

I don't really think that a book written in the early 18th century is old enough to be considered a fairy-tale. >.<

Fairy tales don't have to be especially old; for example we do have modern fairy tales. There are sources that consider The Little Mermaid to be a fairy tale.

As for craft, remember, it only copies tokens, so it can't hit True Conviction (unless of course you have a way to make a token copy of one, and as far as I am aware even then it doesn't stack, so it wouldn't really break it either if you managed to do it, remember the ability can only copy *your* tokens). There are a handful of enchantment tokens, a few of them are enchantment creatures, and then there are Estrid's mask tokens, which are auras. There are a lot more artifact tokens though.

Yep, that's all fair.

White seems like a reasonable color for it. Primary white and blue, secondary red and black, distant tertiary green?

I think white/red/blue all sound right, black and green might not get involved unless it's a major theme for a set (like fabricate in Kaladesh).

If we did divide it up into two mechanics, one handling enchantments and one handling artifacts, I'd assign the artifacts to blue/red/white, and the enchantments to white/green/blue, in no particular order.