miscellaneous card design discussion thread

[Krishnath]

Red is primary, blue is secondary. Colorless can do anything if it is costed high enough.

I'd put Goad tertiary in black, as it has a history of using it (or similar abilities) going all the way back to Alpha, and it fits its color identity.

Thus, if I were to use the Goad mechanic in a set, I'd put it on four to six red cards, two to four blue cards, and one or two black cards of higher rarity. That would give me between seven and twelve cards with the mechanic, which seems reasonable depending on the size of the set.

[folding_music]

:3 agree with Krisnath, passion is always based in red and the off-colour effects are famously i m p y!

[BOVINE]

Red is primary, blue is secondary. Colorless can do anything if it is costed high enough.

I'd put Goad tertiary in black, as it has a history of using it (or similar abilities) going all the way back to Alpha, and it fits its color identity.

Thus, if I were to use the Goad mechanic in a set, I'd put it on four to six red cards, two to four blue cards, and one or two black cards of higher rarity. That would give me between seven and twelve cards with the mechanic, which seems reasonable depending on the size of the set.

:3 agree with Krisnath, passion is always based in red and the off-colour effects are famously i m p y!

And what about green and white? Were the rules just bent for a broader commander color identity in Marisi, Breaker of the Coil? Is it just certain non-goad aspects of Marisi that make it green and white in addition to red?

[folding_music]

I have to say that nothing in Marisi's textbox convinces me of the Naya colours apart from "Cat Warrior"! although maybe the presence of white and green lends a good-stuff feel to its first ability (Hand to Hand affects you in mono-red!) White and green combat control looks more like provoke - Krosan Vorine; Deftblade Elite

then again, given that Goad is printed way after all the old sirens and imps and provokers the colour pie may have changed so that these combat controls are universal and my thinking is out of date.

[spacemonaut]

How would goad be organized by the Primary, Secondary, Tertiary convention?

Seems like it would go under the color pie for forced attack. Its color usage and frequency fits perfectly. Marisi gets to goad on account of being red. Colorless gets to do most things, just usually not at the same rates as colors. There isn't a tertiary color.

then again, given that Goad is printed way after all the old sirens and imps and provokers the colour pie may have changed so that these combat controls are universal and my thinking is out of date.

We haven't seen a provoke effect in (non-red, non-blue) black since Walking Desecration in 2002 so that seems certainly true. (Note Nettling Curse can't force an attack without red mana.) There was a major change to the color pie in 2003 during Eighth Edition (as part of ongoing incremental changes), described in Small Change. Black can have creatures which are required to attack, but doesn't force other creatures to attack.

[folding_music]

There was a major change to the color pie in 2003 during Eighth Edition (as part of ongoing incremental changes), described in Small Change.

thanks for the trip down memory line :3 Scrolling down this I notice how much I detest the changes they made to the base game around this time in its life! massive simplification and condensing all round, phasing out risky cards and chasing out every trace of mystique they could find. maybe I'm alone in that?

edit: i guess i'm talking about the base sets cos Mirrodin came out right after this and that was full of good, strange cards. it was like the theoretical design philosophy focused in on a more boring subset of all the things cards could do but the expert-level sets were too wild to follow it. Mirrodin is exciting and Kamigawa is incredibly strange but 8th and 9th are sleep-inducing.

[BOVINE]

After looking through the mechanical color pie article a little bit more it makes sense for Naya to have access to goad. Red obviously can force attacks but white and green both can prevent being attacked which when accompanied by red makes a lot of sense to me to have goad.

[Krishnath]

I think the white and green aspects of Marisi are represented in the first ability, the ability to prevent spells from being cast during combat is a very white (and to a lesser extent green) thing to do.

[void_nothing]

I think the white and green aspects of Marisi are represented in the first ability, the ability to prevent spells from being cast during combat is a very white (and to a lesser extent green) thing to do.

One hundred percent. You could argue that it's a more white than red thing but it does feel green as well. Green granting a saboteur ability and having a creature of that size are also right on the money. No way could Marisi be monored as printed - you could argue RW but nothing wrong with him being full Naya colors both flavorfully and mechanically.

[SecretInfiltrator]

In general, mechanics work better when there's more levers of balance. The fundamental mistake of Dredge was treating the self-mill as a cost, but in reality a higher Dredge count is a bigger upside, because it gets more stuff in your graveyard to be abused. And the mechanic had no other way of being balanced.

One of the thoughts for fixing Dredge I've considered is a Skaab-flavored mechanic, as Skaabs, as an "archetype", have creature exile as a cost that does what Dredge is supposed to do. The version of it I've actually written before is... More than a little messed up... But here's a more-close-to-dredge version:

I always thought the most straightforward balance to dredge was exiling the number of other cards from the graveyard rather than burying that amount from the library. Your graveyard is a finite source you must build, so that's your limit for repetition. And bigger numbers actually become harder to pay.

[Morpic_Tide]

I always thought the most straightforward balance to dredge was exiling the number of other cards from the graveyard rather than burying that amount from the library. Your graveyard is a finite source you must build, so that's your limit for repetition. And bigger numbers actually become harder to pay.

The benefit of applying a similar mechanic to Skaabs is that this becomes an optional part of the creatures within the mechanic, rather than a requirement. So you can still have Dredge mechanics involved, still have the risky cards exile your graveyard, but it's optional design to allow for using harsh card disadvantage, large mana costs or losing creatures instead. The cost of recovery varies based on the card, and in my example, I keep it in a more limited selection with a guaranteed card disadvantage element.

[SecretInfiltrator]

You'll have to explain that more, because right now my variant is mechanically closer to Skaab-like than recreate. Maybe that's past the scope of this thread though.

[Morpic_Tide]

You'll have to explain that more, because right now my variant is mechanically closer to Skaab-like than recreate. Maybe that's past the scope of this thread though.

The point being made is that it isn't locked to Skaabs as part of the mechanic itself, but rather as something the mechanic is applied to, so you can use the straightforward solution for the Skaabs, or more roundabout loop-breaking. Inherently, as I've written Recreate, it's a source of immense card disadvantage to be constantly using, necessitating an unusual intensity of card draw for a graveyard mechanic. Which fits well being being primary in Blue, and synergises by giving more opportunities to use it's draw-replacement property.

[Dragonlover]

Total topic change, anyone know where to get the current frames for MSE? Mine only goes up to the M15 frame.

Dragonlover

[Krishnath]

Total topic change, anyone know where to get the current frames for MSE? Mine only goes up to the M15 frame.

Dragonlover

Visit the MSE forums and search for plugins?

[Dragonlover]

That worked, cheers dude!

Dragonlover

[folding_music]

was scouring scryfall yesterday trying to work out why there had never been a flashback Infest variant... think it'd be too powerful and controlling? what would it look like if you designed one? sorcery 2BB, flashback 4BBB?

[Krishnath]

was scouring scryfall yesterday trying to work out why there had never been a flashback Infest variant... think it'd be too powerful and controlling? what would it look like if you designed one? sorcery 2BB, flashback 4BBB?

2BB casting cost seems fine, but I think flashback 5BB or 6BB would be ideal. However, I'd make the card rare, it is mass removal after all.

[JovialJovian]

I don't think it would NEED to be rare, existing Infest variants remain uncommon, even with significant upsides like Madness on Biting Rain or one-sidedness on Golden Demise. It does probably need to sit at 6BB though, based on the added-value going rate for uncommons.

[BOVINE]

Does this ability grab you at all? Edit to add: This is for multiplayer format

Cardname cost
Creature
Strife (If this creature is untapped, creatures can't attack you. During each opponent's turn, creatures they control have "t: This creature fights a creature with strife.")
/

[Krishnath]

Does this ability grab you at all? Edit to add: This is for multiplayer format

Cardname cost
Creature
Strife (If this creature is untapped, creatures can't attack you. During each opponent's turn, creatures they control have "t: This creature fights a creature with strife.")
/

Seems like a red/green ability.

[JovialJovian]

quick idea, before I forget it:

Envy GG
Creature - Incarnation
~'s power is equal to the highest power among other creatures.
~'s toughness is equal to the highest toughness among other creatures.
~ has trample as long as another creature has trample. The same is true for haste, hexproof, indestructible, reach, and vigilance.
*/*

the keyword salad is just green keywords since it's looking at all creatures, not just yours.

[Krishnath]

quick idea, before I forget it:

Envy GG
Creature - Incarnation
~'s power is equal to the highest power among other creatures.
~'s toughness is equal to the highest toughness among other creatures.
~ has trample as long as another creature has trample. The same is true for haste, hexproof, indestructible, reach, and vigilance.
*/*

the keyword salad is just green keywords since it's looking at all creatures, not just yours.

I love it, particularly because the entire card is a pun (Green with Envy). :D

[BOVINE]

Would Skulk make sense in a multiplayer set (like conspiracy) where biggest creature matters is a theme? Could it convey a scurrying underfoot feeling? To me it seems like it could be a nice consolation prize while you're still looking to looking to have the big boy. Help me out y'all. Thanks

[Krishnath]

Personally, I think it would be fine in that context. But you'd also need a way for the person who decides to go with the skulk creatures to deal with the large creatures of their opponents, either temporarily, or permanently.