So, on MTGSalvation, I posted a question about Flickerform and whether it would return Kestia, the Cultivator, my commander, from the command zone to the battlefield whether she was the enchanted creature or one of the Auras of the enchanted creature. MTGS link here.
I forgot about the thread for over a week and I have a followup question to the replies, but I didn't want to necro a thread, and it seems like all the cool kids are here now anyway, so I'm posting my followup here.
So, if I understand correctly, Flickerform is not technically a linked ability, and therefore C. R. 607.2a doesn't really limit the return ability to the exiled zone. My concern, however, is that the return effect that returns the auras refers to a "specified zone" as described in C. R. 603.6. Can someone clarify?
Clarification on Flickerform and Command Zone
Accepted Answer
I think the question has already been answered though there are some inconsistencies and uncertainties in the answers given. Just to be clear: Kestia will return, as a creature, even if she was put into the Command Zone.
It is worthwhile to note that Flickerform does not mention any zones. It doesn't say "the exiled cards" (see Oblivion Ring) nor does it say anything about cards in the exile zone. It simply states "exiled this way". In this way, the wording is identical to something like Curse of the Swine. And, as was mentioned in the quote above with rule 406.2, this simply means "those cards, upon which, the exile action was taken". Which is what happened. Kestia was "exiled" (as an action) even though that action did not produce the normal result. And Flickerform simply looks for the cards it "exiled" (wherever they ended up) due to this rule:
In the case of Flickerform, the ability caused it to change zones so the ability needs to be able to find it in the public zone it went to. Since it doesn't actually care, or specify, the zone it needs to be in (either explicitly or implicitly) it will track the cards to the first public zone they go to. For Kestia, that is the Command Zone.
Go to full postIt is worthwhile to note that Flickerform does not mention any zones. It doesn't say "the exiled cards" (see Oblivion Ring) nor does it say anything about cards in the exile zone. It simply states "exiled this way". In this way, the wording is identical to something like Curse of the Swine. And, as was mentioned in the quote above with rule 406.2, this simply means "those cards, upon which, the exile action was taken". Which is what happened. Kestia was "exiled" (as an action) even though that action did not produce the normal result. And Flickerform simply looks for the cards it "exiled" (wherever they ended up) due to this rule:
400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
In the case of Flickerform, the ability caused it to change zones so the ability needs to be able to find it in the public zone it went to. Since it doesn't actually care, or specify, the zone it needs to be in (either explicitly or implicitly) it will track the cards to the first public zone they go to. For Kestia, that is the Command Zone.
As you mentioned, Flickerform isn't a linked ability - if you activate Flickerform, exile the enchanted creature and some auras, and send Kestia to the command zone, the ability will track everything and return them to the battlefield (including Kestia).
As a side note, referencing one of the ruling on Flickerform: "If the enchanted creature was enchanted by any Auras with bestow or any Licids, those cards will return to the battlefield unattached as creatures." So while Kestia will return, she will instead be a creature when she returns.
edit: misread Flickerform and assumed it had the same templating as Ghostway. As you pointed out, Flickerform explicitly calls out the exiled cards to return, so if you send Kestia to the command zone, she won't come back.
As a side note, referencing one of the ruling on Flickerform: "If the enchanted creature was enchanted by any Auras with bestow or any Licids, those cards will return to the battlefield unattached as creatures." So while Kestia will return, she will instead be a creature when she returns.
edit: misread Flickerform and assumed it had the same templating as Ghostway. As you pointed out, Flickerform explicitly calls out the exiled cards to return, so if you send Kestia to the command zone, she won't come back.
Last edited by Mookie 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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BeyondnoxxTemple of Mystery caretaker
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Im no judge. But as far as i know is whwnever your commander goes anywhere (be that exile or graveyard) you have The option to do a replacement effect to place it Into the command zone. (I have let my commander go to The gy instead of command zone)
Hope it Hella. But again no judge. Just what i was told by One.
Hope it Hella. But again no judge. Just what i was told by One.
Warning for spam. Unsure answers are not allowed in Rulings. - v_n
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Pauper:N/A
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Pauper:N/A
Commander:N/A
Modern:N/A
Cards to sort: 80.000-85.000
Thank you for your fast replies, but they don't really address my main concern.
I wanted to know specifically why C.R. 603.6 doesn't preclude the "return" of a bestowed Kestia that get's Flickerform'd to the command zone due to the fact that a zone was "specified" as described in that rule.
Edit: Just read your edit, Mookie. It seemed like that point was contended in the MTGS thread. To quote someone there:
I wanted to know specifically why C.R. 603.6 doesn't preclude the "return" of a bestowed Kestia that get's Flickerform'd to the command zone due to the fact that a zone was "specified" as described in that rule.
Edit: Just read your edit, Mookie. It seemed like that point was contended in the MTGS thread. To quote someone there:
"406.2. To exile an object is to put it into the exile zone from whatever zone it's currently in. An exiled card is a card that's been put into the exile zone." The overlap in the verbal and gerund form of 'exiled' is problematic.
However, the form '[acted-on] this way' is a well known template that points to objects that were subject to beginning the instruction from the effect as written, surviving meddling by replacement effects (but not utter restriction of the event through an impossibility rule). Those Auras - the commander - were exiled this way, even if they -are- not exiled.
Disclaimer: not a judge. However, digging a little deeper, looks like the relevant rule here may be 603.7c:
So, a card like Ghostway will return Kestia from the command zone because it refers to 'those cards', and not the zone. On the other hand, Flickerform explicitly calls out a zone for the cards that are being returned, and thus isn't able to find Kestia in the command zone.603.7c A delayed triggered ability that refers to a particular object still affects it even if the object changes characteristics. However, if that object is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at the time the delayed triggered ability resolves, the ability won't affect it. (Note that if that object left that zone and then returned, it's a new object and thus won't be affected. See rule 400.7.)
603.7c has nothing to do with replacement effects. It only clarifies that if I send Kestia to exile and someone uses Pull from Eternity on it before Flickerform's delayed trigger resolves, Kestia won't come back.
I believe the actually relevant rule is the one I suggested in my last two posts: 603.6.
I believe the actually relevant rule is the one I suggested in my last two posts: 603.6.
I'm not a judge either, although I don't think that matters outside sanctioned events. I would like to hear the opinions of the old MTGSalvation regulars that posted in the MTGS topic though, if that's at all possible.603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called "zone-change triggers." Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent's hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
I think the question has already been answered though there are some inconsistencies and uncertainties in the answers given. Just to be clear: Kestia will return, as a creature, even if she was put into the Command Zone.
It is worthwhile to note that Flickerform does not mention any zones. It doesn't say "the exiled cards" (see Oblivion Ring) nor does it say anything about cards in the exile zone. It simply states "exiled this way". In this way, the wording is identical to something like Curse of the Swine. And, as was mentioned in the quote above with rule 406.2, this simply means "those cards, upon which, the exile action was taken". Which is what happened. Kestia was "exiled" (as an action) even though that action did not produce the normal result. And Flickerform simply looks for the cards it "exiled" (wherever they ended up) due to this rule:
In the case of Flickerform, the ability caused it to change zones so the ability needs to be able to find it in the public zone it went to. Since it doesn't actually care, or specify, the zone it needs to be in (either explicitly or implicitly) it will track the cards to the first public zone they go to. For Kestia, that is the Command Zone.
It is worthwhile to note that Flickerform does not mention any zones. It doesn't say "the exiled cards" (see Oblivion Ring) nor does it say anything about cards in the exile zone. It simply states "exiled this way". In this way, the wording is identical to something like Curse of the Swine. And, as was mentioned in the quote above with rule 406.2, this simply means "those cards, upon which, the exile action was taken". Which is what happened. Kestia was "exiled" (as an action) even though that action did not produce the normal result. And Flickerform simply looks for the cards it "exiled" (wherever they ended up) due to this rule:
400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
In the case of Flickerform, the ability caused it to change zones so the ability needs to be able to find it in the public zone it went to. Since it doesn't actually care, or specify, the zone it needs to be in (either explicitly or implicitly) it will track the cards to the first public zone they go to. For Kestia, that is the Command Zone.
Yeah, I got pretty much the same answer in the other four places I asked, including MTGS. Apparently, the game only cares about the exiled zone in this case if there's a linked ability involved. If there isn't, the return effect will find the object in the public zone to which it was sent regardless of whether or not the action referenced in the return effect is what literally happened.
I am henceforth satisfied. Thank you for your time.
I am henceforth satisfied. Thank you for your time.
