Ok, so I have Marchesa, the Black Rose on the board.
I cast Zealous Conscripts, it resolves, and I steal an Oathsworn Knight from my opponent.
I sacrifice Oathsworn Knight during my turn.
How do things resolve at the end of my turn with the Marchesa, the Black Rose trigger and the Zealous Conscripts trigger?
Marchesa + Zealous Conscript Steal Resolution
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Zealous Conscripts doesn't have a trigger making you give up control (this is important for your second question). Instead, the initial trigger simply has a duration. So, you steal the Knight and sac it. Marchesa gives it back to you in the end step. Then, in the Cleanup step, Conscripts effect ends.
However, you no long control the creature you stole. You control a brand new creature that looks remarkably similar. But since it is not the same creature there is nothing causing you to lose control of it. You get the creature.
Interestingly, this is one of the few ways to "permanently" steal something using something like Conscripts. Ending the turn doesn't do it (contrary to your statement about using End Turn abilities). Because this is not a trigger, there is nothing to respond to. It ends in the Cleanup and ending the turn always moves to the Cleanup step so you can't use something like Obeka, Brute Chronologist to permanently steal something with Conscripts (or similar) abilities/effects.
Go to full postHowever, you no long control the creature you stole. You control a brand new creature that looks remarkably similar. But since it is not the same creature there is nothing causing you to lose control of it. You get the creature.
Interestingly, this is one of the few ways to "permanently" steal something using something like Conscripts. Ending the turn doesn't do it (contrary to your statement about using End Turn abilities). Because this is not a trigger, there is nothing to respond to. It ends in the Cleanup and ending the turn always moves to the Cleanup step so you can't use something like Obeka, Brute Chronologist to permanently steal something with Conscripts (or similar) abilities/effects.
Last edited by Jagermorder 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zealous Conscripts doesn't have a trigger making you give up control (this is important for your second question). Instead, the initial trigger simply has a duration. So, you steal the Knight and sac it. Marchesa gives it back to you in the end step. Then, in the Cleanup step, Conscripts effect ends.
However, you no long control the creature you stole. You control a brand new creature that looks remarkably similar. But since it is not the same creature there is nothing causing you to lose control of it. You get the creature.
Interestingly, this is one of the few ways to "permanently" steal something using something like Conscripts. Ending the turn doesn't do it (contrary to your statement about using End Turn abilities). Because this is not a trigger, there is nothing to respond to. It ends in the Cleanup and ending the turn always moves to the Cleanup step so you can't use something like Obeka, Brute Chronologist to permanently steal something with Conscripts (or similar) abilities/effects.
However, you no long control the creature you stole. You control a brand new creature that looks remarkably similar. But since it is not the same creature there is nothing causing you to lose control of it. You get the creature.
Interestingly, this is one of the few ways to "permanently" steal something using something like Conscripts. Ending the turn doesn't do it (contrary to your statement about using End Turn abilities). Because this is not a trigger, there is nothing to respond to. It ends in the Cleanup and ending the turn always moves to the Cleanup step so you can't use something like Obeka, Brute Chronologist to permanently steal something with Conscripts (or similar) abilities/effects.
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So just to be clear. Zealous Conscripts "gain control of target permanent until end of turn"
When I sacrifice the 'target permanent' that permanent dies. Then the permanent that bounces back onto the battlefield is considered a new "target permanent"?
Would that work the same for an Act of Treason or anything else with "gain control of X until end of turn"?
When I sacrifice the 'target permanent' that permanent dies. Then the permanent that bounces back onto the battlefield is considered a new "target permanent"?
Would that work the same for an Act of Treason or anything else with "gain control of X until end of turn"?
It is a new permanent. It is not a target of anything.Jagermorder wrote: ↑2 years agoWhen I sacrifice the 'target permanent' that permanent dies. Then the permanent that bounces back onto the battlefield is considered a new "target permanent"?
403.4. Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield, it becomes a new object and has no relationship to any previous permanent represented by the same card, except for the cases listed in rule 400.7. (This is also true for any objects entering any zone.)
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?