Sylvan Library, Abundance, Alhammarret’s Archive Interaction

Bmorse643
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Post by Bmorse643 » 2 years ago

Good Evening. I was hoping someone could explain whether or not Alhammarrets Archive and Abundance can be used in conjunction with Sylvan Library at the same time? The way I see it I should it should draw me 5 cards with added effect of alhammarrets. I was hoping someone could clarify exactly how these cards would interact. Thank you.

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Please use card tags:

[card]Abundance[/card] = Abundance
Sylvan Library
Alhammarret's Archive

As you are implying, Archive won't work off your normal draw so we can ignore that (just want to add this addendum just in case). However, Abundance can so whether you do is important for later.

So, you have drawn your card for turn and then you decide to use Library's trigger. This is allowing you to draw 2 more cards. Now, you have a choice to make: do you want to apply Archive or Abundance first? Since both are replacement effects and both affect the draws you are getting, you choose their relative order. And, if you apply Abundance first you no longer are drawing cards so Archive won't apply. Which means that generally you want to apply Archive to each draw first.

Doing so means that you turn "Draw 2" into "Draw 4". Now, since you are still drawing cards so you can (but don't have to) use Abundance's replacement effect. And you can choose it for any, all, or none of the card draws. If you use it for none of them (including your card drawn for turn) you have drawn 5 cards for the turn and need to put 2 back or pay 4 life for each of those two you want to keep. If you have replaced every draw that means you have "drawn" 0 cards (though you have 5 new cards in hand) so Library's effect doesn't see any you need to pay life to keep.

So, as long as you replace every draw with Abundance, you keep all of them without paying life to Library. If you have drawn at least 1 card without using Abundance, you need to pay 4 life to keep it. If you have drawn 2 or more without using Abundance, you need to pay 4 life for two of them to keep them.

So, your best bet in order to keep all 5 without a life payment is to use Abundance on all 5 draws for the turn so Library won't have you put any back (or pay life for). The downside is that everyone sees all 5 cards you put into your hand.

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Mookie
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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Links: Alhammarret's Archive, Abundance, Sylvan Library

From Sylvan Library's rulings:
If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.
From the comprehensive rules:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below...
616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
So the sequence is:
  1. Draw for turn (turn-based action). You may replace this with Abundance's ability.
  2. Sylvan Library's ability goes on the stack. Assuming you wish to use it, you attempt to draw two extra cards.
  3. Replacement effects apply. If you apply Alhammaret's Archive's ability first, this will be doubled to drawing four extra cards, then replacing that to Abundance four times. If you apply Abundance's ability first, you will do so twice. This isn't a card draw, so Archive no longer applies.
  4. Sylvan Library's ability finishes resolving. If you have drawn any cards, you will need to pay life or put them back. If you haven't drawn any cards (because they have all been replaced by Abundance), nothing happens.
....so yes, you can use Abundance five times.

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Post by user_938036 » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Please use card tags:

[card]Abundance[/card] = Abundance
Sylvan Library
Alhammarret's Archive


Doing so means that you turn "Draw 2" into "Draw 4". Now, since you are still drawing cards so you can (but don't have to) use Abundance's replacement effect. And you can choose it for any, all, or none of the card draws. If you use it for none of them (including your card drawn for turn) you have drawn 5 cards for the turn and need to put 2 back or pay 4 life for each of those two you want to keep. If you have replaced every draw that means you have "drawn" 0 cards (though you have 5 new cards in hand) so Library's effect doesn't see any you need to pay life to keep.

So, as long as you replace every draw with Abundance, you keep all of them without paying life to Library. If you have drawn at least 1 card without using Abundance, you need to pay 4 life to keep it. If you have drawn 2 or more without using Abundance, you need to pay 4 life for two of them to keep them.

So, your best bet in order to keep all 5 without a life payment is to use Abundance on all 5 draws for the turn so Library won't have you put any back (or pay life for). The downside is that everyone sees all 5 cards you put into your hand.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that if you replace all the draws with Abundance you only get 3 abundance effects because they are all happening in your draw step and you have yet to draw your first card in your draw step so Archive doesn't apply to them.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

That is a good callout actually. And you are right. Since you have not drawn any yet it appears Archive might not apply to the Library draws either.

Basically you do to draw and replace it with Abundance. Then you use Library and replace the first with Abundance but Archive won't apply because you haven't drawn a card yet. Then you replace the second and you still haven't drawn yet in your draw step so Archive won't apply to that. So, yes, it seems you get 3 cards without needing to put any back. Which, to be fair, means Abundance doesn't do a lot here (beyond what Abundance would usually be used for). That is, without it, you get to see 5 cards though with it you get to include/exclude lands as you see fit.

This would also be the reason why Abundance would allow you to still "draw" through a Narset, Parter of Veils with Library since you never actually draw a card.

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Post by Mookie » 2 years ago

Yeah, good catch. My parsing was "the first one you draw in each of your draw steps" = the turn-based draw, but that technically isn't the case if you replace that draw with something else and then proceed to draw from another effect during your draw step (in this case, Sylvan Library).

I'll note that you could just draw your first card for turn, then the two Sylvan Library draws will be doubled, allowing you to Abundance four times for five cards total. You will need to pay 4 life or put back the first card, but that's still better than paying 8 life / putting back two cards.

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