Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider "entering with X +1/+1 counters"
If Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider was to "enter with" a number of +1/+1 counters on it, would it see its own +1/+1 counters and double them? Probably simple for people who understand the rules better, but man its got me scratching my head!
Accepted Answer
If we follow the rulings for Winding Constrictor, the answer is no (see the February 2017 ruling in Gatherer). This is arguably because, for the purposes of C.R. 614.12, the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities are not "replacement effects [that] modify how a permanent enters the battlefield". For a similar situation involving that card or Corpsejack Menace, see this thread.
Note that Vorinclex's last two abilities apply to counters of any kind, not just +1/+1 counters.
But see C.R. 614.12: "To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of [Vorinclex] as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account [among other things] continuous effects from [Vorinclex's] own static abilities that would apply to [Vorinclex] once it's on the battlefield", and the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities, which are continuous effects from static abilities (C.R. 604.1, 611.1), are arguably effects of this kind, since they apply to any "permanent or player", including Vorinclex itself, that "you" or an opponent, as the case may be, would put counters on. And under C.R. 400.6, "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from [Vorinclex] or elsewhere, are applied to th[e] event" of putting Vorinclex onto the battlefield, and this is arguably true even if those effects do not directly refer to entering the battlefield.
EDIT: Edited after comment 3 was posted.
Go to full postNote that Vorinclex's last two abilities apply to counters of any kind, not just +1/+1 counters.
But see C.R. 614.12: "To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of [Vorinclex] as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account [among other things] continuous effects from [Vorinclex's] own static abilities that would apply to [Vorinclex] once it's on the battlefield", and the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities, which are continuous effects from static abilities (C.R. 604.1, 611.1), are arguably effects of this kind, since they apply to any "permanent or player", including Vorinclex itself, that "you" or an opponent, as the case may be, would put counters on. And under C.R. 400.6, "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from [Vorinclex] or elsewhere, are applied to th[e] event" of putting Vorinclex onto the battlefield, and this is arguably true even if those effects do not directly refer to entering the battlefield.
EDIT: Edited after comment 3 was posted.
Currently building: Bruna, the Fading Light (card advantage tribal / reanimator)
Main decks;
Neheb, Big Red Champion Yeva's Mono Green Control, Ayara's Aristocrats Greven, Predator Captain the One Punch Man, Derevri, Empirical Tactician Aggro, Tymna & Kraum's Saboteurs, Kondo & Tymna's Hatebears Tuvasa's Silver Bullets, Brudiclad does Brudiclad thingsSidisi, Brood Tyrant (lantern control)
Main decks;
Neheb, Big Red Champion Yeva's Mono Green Control, Ayara's Aristocrats Greven, Predator Captain the One Punch Man, Derevri, Empirical Tactician Aggro, Tymna & Kraum's Saboteurs, Kondo & Tymna's Hatebears Tuvasa's Silver Bullets, Brudiclad does Brudiclad thingsSidisi, Brood Tyrant (lantern control)
If we follow the rulings for Winding Constrictor, the answer is no (see the February 2017 ruling in Gatherer). This is arguably because, for the purposes of C.R. 614.12, the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities are not "replacement effects [that] modify how a permanent enters the battlefield". For a similar situation involving that card or Corpsejack Menace, see this thread.
Note that Vorinclex's last two abilities apply to counters of any kind, not just +1/+1 counters.
But see C.R. 614.12: "To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of [Vorinclex] as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account [among other things] continuous effects from [Vorinclex's] own static abilities that would apply to [Vorinclex] once it's on the battlefield", and the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities, which are continuous effects from static abilities (C.R. 604.1, 611.1), are arguably effects of this kind, since they apply to any "permanent or player", including Vorinclex itself, that "you" or an opponent, as the case may be, would put counters on. And under C.R. 400.6, "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from [Vorinclex] or elsewhere, are applied to th[e] event" of putting Vorinclex onto the battlefield, and this is arguably true even if those effects do not directly refer to entering the battlefield.
EDIT: Edited after comment 3 was posted.
Note that Vorinclex's last two abilities apply to counters of any kind, not just +1/+1 counters.
But see C.R. 614.12: "To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of [Vorinclex] as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account [among other things] continuous effects from [Vorinclex's] own static abilities that would apply to [Vorinclex] once it's on the battlefield", and the effects of Vorinclex's last two abilities, which are continuous effects from static abilities (C.R. 604.1, 611.1), are arguably effects of this kind, since they apply to any "permanent or player", including Vorinclex itself, that "you" or an opponent, as the case may be, would put counters on. And under C.R. 400.6, "any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from [Vorinclex] or elsewhere, are applied to th[e] event" of putting Vorinclex onto the battlefield, and this is arguably true even if those effects do not directly refer to entering the battlefield.
EDIT: Edited after comment 3 was posted.
Last edited by peteroupc 3 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
The important piece about why Vorinclex doesn't apply to itself is in 614.12 (which peter omitted for some strange reason) and is detailed better in the linked thread. The entire rule is:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
I have bolded the important statement in this rule that explains why it works the way it does.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
I have bolded the important statement in this rule that explains why it works the way it does.
