Flame Spill and damage enhancers

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Sojourner Dusk
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 4 years ago

I'm looking for clarification on the interaction between Flame Spill and damage boosting effects, such as with Red Wedding and/or Nightmare Fuel. (Yes, I'm expecting a page of errata ala Void Winnower for this card once the set drops.)


My opponent controls Edgewall Innkeeper, which I target with Flame Spill. Barring any effects, this should deal 4 damage to the creature initially, of which 3 damage will "trample" to its controller. If I instead control Torbran at resolution, would this deal 6 damage initially (2 additional to creature), with 7 damage "trampling" over to its controller (5 with another 2 additional as it is being dealt to a new receiver)? With Obosh, this should deal 8 to Innkeeper initially. Does it then deal 7 or 14 to Innkeeper's controller? How ridiculous does this get if I control both Torbran and Obosh?


Thanks to any Judges / Rules Gurus that can assist in making sure I don't punt when I test this in decks.

Accepted Answer

by Argus » 4 years ago
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
I'm looking for clarification on the interaction between Flame Spill and damage boosting effects, such as with Red Wedding and/or Nightmare Fuel. (Yes, I'm expecting a page of errata ala Void Winnower for this card once the set drops.)
That self-replacement will be applied first and then ignored.
614.15. Some replacement effects are not continuous effects. Rather, they are an effect of a resolving spell or ability that replace part or all of that spell or ability's own effect(s). Such effects are called self-replacement effects. The text creating a self-replacement effect is usually part of the ability whose effect is being replaced, but the text can be a separate ability, particularly when preceded by an ability word. When applying replacement effects to an event, self-replacement effects are applied before other replacement effects.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
616.1a If any of the replacement and/or prevention effects are self-replacement effects (see rule 614.15), one of them must be chosen. If not, proceed to rule 616.1b.
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
My opponent controls Edgewall Innkeeper, which I target with Flame Spill. Barring any effects, this should deal 4 damage to the creature initially, of which 3 damage will "trample" to its controller.
And all other replacements effects will be applied to that event, with no repetition of the original self-replacement.
614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.
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Argus
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Post by Argus » 4 years ago

Sojourner Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
I'm looking for clarification on the interaction between Flame Spill and damage boosting effects, such as with Red Wedding and/or Nightmare Fuel. (Yes, I'm expecting a page of errata ala Void Winnower for this card once the set drops.)
That self-replacement will be applied first and then ignored.
614.15. Some replacement effects are not continuous effects. Rather, they are an effect of a resolving spell or ability that replace part or all of that spell or ability's own effect(s). Such effects are called self-replacement effects. The text creating a self-replacement effect is usually part of the ability whose effect is being replaced, but the text can be a separate ability, particularly when preceded by an ability word. When applying replacement effects to an event, self-replacement effects are applied before other replacement effects.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
616.1a If any of the replacement and/or prevention effects are self-replacement effects (see rule 614.15), one of them must be chosen. If not, proceed to rule 616.1b.
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
My opponent controls Edgewall Innkeeper, which I target with Flame Spill. Barring any effects, this should deal 4 damage to the creature initially, of which 3 damage will "trample" to its controller.
And all other replacements effects will be applied to that event, with no repetition of the original self-replacement.
614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?

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chetoos
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Post by chetoos » 4 years ago

Also, similar to how trample works, you "assign" lethal damage first, so 1 to the edgewall, then other abilities, so if you control both Torbjorn and too many legs, you would end up dealing 6 damage to the innkeeper (assign 1, plus 2, double) and 10 damage to the controller (excess 3, plus 2, double.)

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