fast effects during combat damage step

Theoric
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Post by Theoric » 4 years ago

I have scion of the ur dragon and bloom tender in play.
I attack with the scion and no blockers are declared. During the combat damage step, can I tap bloom tender for ubwgr, use uw to put teneb the harvester in the graveyard, deal 6 damage, and use the remaining rgb to use teneb's ability to animate a creature?

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by void_nothing » 4 years ago
You can. After no blockers are declared, when you get priority, you have time to activate the Scion's ability such that it's a Teneb when it deals combat damage to your opponent, at which point "Teneb's" ability will trigger.

EDIT: Reading the whole question more carefully, as @CalebLost points out, you can't use mana from the same mana ability to pay for both abilities without help. You'll have to activate the Scion's ability during the declare blockers step meaning you'll lose your unspent mana when the step ends before the combat damage step begins.
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Post by void_nothing » 4 years ago

You can. After no blockers are declared, when you get priority, you have time to activate the Scion's ability such that it's a Teneb when it deals combat damage to your opponent, at which point "Teneb's" ability will trigger.

EDIT: Reading the whole question more carefully, as @CalebLost points out, you can't use mana from the same mana ability to pay for both abilities without help. You'll have to activate the Scion's ability during the declare blockers step meaning you'll lose your unspent mana when the step ends before the combat damage step begins.
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Post by Theoric » 4 years ago

Cool, thanks bro

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Post by CalebLost » 4 years ago

The previous answer is partially wrong. Yes you can activate Scion after blocker are declared with Tender mana so that it become Teneb before dealing damage, BUT you cannot use the same Tender mana to pay for the Teneb trigger.

The last possible moment you can use the Scion ability to become Teneb is the Declare Blocker phase after no blocker are declared (509.4) so you get the Tender mana here and spend 2 to activate Scion. But Teneb triggers after dealing damage and that's the Combat Damage step and mana empties between steps (106.4) so you cannot carry it over the damage combat step.

You cannot use the Scion ability during combat damage step because the first thing that happens there is assigning damage and resolving it before anyone got priority (510.1/2/3).

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Combat_phase
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Combat_damage_step
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Theoric
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Post by Theoric » 4 years ago

Okay thanks guys.
Here's a related question. Rule 510.2 states that no player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt, but Teneb states that when damage is dealt, you can animate a creature.
So let's say I use scion's ability to turn itself into Atarka, world render and then attack. After my opponent declares no attackers, I turn the scion into Teneb, the harvester. Since the Teneb has double strike, I can pay 4bb and animate 2 creatures, right?

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Post by user_938036 » 4 years ago

Theoric wrote:
4 years ago
Okay thanks guys.
Here's a related question. Rule 510.2 states that no player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt, but Teneb states that when damage is dealt, you can animate a creature.
So let's say I use scion's ability to turn itself into Atarka, world render and then attack. After my opponent declares no attackers, I turn the scion into Teneb, the harvester. Since the Teneb has double strike, I can pay 4bb and animate 2 creatures, right?
This doenst work because Scion is still Atarka, it doesn't have the ability of Scion to turn into Teneb.

Let's assume you give Scion double strike in a normal method. Because a creature with first or double strike is involved in combat there is an additional damage step. During the first strike damage step you can pay 2b to rez a creature. Then during the normal combat damage step you can again pay 2b to rez a second creature.

To clarify about the rule you cited. It is correct nothing can be done inbetween assigning and dealing damage. But nothing is trying to be done between those events. Teneb has a triggered ability that triggers when damage is dealt. The thing about assigning damage is usually irrelevant because combat only involves a single attacker against a single blocker but when multiple blockers are involved or trample the attacking player must assign how the damage is being divided. The rule you cited is clarifying that nothing can be done between the damage being divvied up and it actually being dealt.

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Post by Theoric » 4 years ago

user_938036 wrote:
4 years ago
This doenst work because Scion is still Atarka, it doesn't have the ability of Scion to turn into Teneb.
Damn I didn't notice that in the card rulings. It makes sense though since it doesn't have that 'that also has this ability' line that various other copycat cards have. Thanks.

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