Does Lazav have Indestructibe?

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

I control Thassa, Deep-Dwelling and Lazav, the Multifarious. My opponent uses Shadowspear to remove Thassa's indestructible (but also from everything else I have). My opponent then destroys Thassa. I turn Lazav into "Thassa" for 4 mana.

Does Lazav have Indestructible?

My assumption is yes because he didn't have it to lose before and Shadowspear doesn't prevent him from gaining it after spear's ability resolves.

Accepted Answer

by WizardMN » 4 years ago
Interestingly, that ruling doesn't answer the question :)

That ruling applies to situations where something enters after the ability resolves (which doesn't apply here as Lazav is already on the field) or something gains indestructible from some effect explicitly causing it to gain indestructible (which also doesn't apply).

Instead, this comes down to layers since the effect from Shadowspear still applies to Lazav since he was on the field when the ability resolved even if he didn't have indestructible at the time. The ability from Spear applies in layer 6.

However, Lazav's ability is a copy ability so it applies in layer 1. So, Lazav gets to be an Indestructible Thassa from Layer 1 through Layer 5. Then, we get to Layer 6 and see the Spear effect is still applying to Lazav and it takes away the Indestructible he now has.

In the end, Lazav will end up with no Indestructible because of the nature of copy effects within the Layer System.
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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

I believe this is answered by one of Shadowspear's rulings:
If a permanent enters the battlefield under an opponent's control with hexproof or indestructible after Shadowspear's second ability resolves, it won't lose that ability unless you activate Shadowspear's second ability again. The same is true if an opponent's permanent gains indestructible or hexproof after Shadowspear's second ability resolves.
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Interestingly, that ruling doesn't answer the question :)

That ruling applies to situations where something enters after the ability resolves (which doesn't apply here as Lazav is already on the field) or something gains indestructible from some effect explicitly causing it to gain indestructible (which also doesn't apply).

Instead, this comes down to layers since the effect from Shadowspear still applies to Lazav since he was on the field when the ability resolved even if he didn't have indestructible at the time. The ability from Spear applies in layer 6.

However, Lazav's ability is a copy ability so it applies in layer 1. So, Lazav gets to be an Indestructible Thassa from Layer 1 through Layer 5. Then, we get to Layer 6 and see the Spear effect is still applying to Lazav and it takes away the Indestructible he now has.

In the end, Lazav will end up with no Indestructible because of the nature of copy effects within the Layer System.

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