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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 2 months ago

Hi, if my opponent casts a Murderous Redcap, and he has a Goblin Chieftain in play. Would the redcap do 3 damage, because the bonus from chieftain is counted? Is this also the same if he has a Grumgully, the generous in play?

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by Argus » 2 months ago
Yes, a 2/2 creature getting +1/+1 from a continuous effect or a counter has power/toughness of 3/3. Since its power is 3, "damage equal to its power" means damage equal to 3. To ignore those (or something like Giant Growth), it would have to specify "damage equal to its base power", and I don't think any card does that.
613.4. The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object's characteristics are instantaneous.
Example: Honor of the Pure is an enchantment that reads "White creatures you control get +1/+1." Honor of the Pure and a 2/2 black creature are on the battlefield under your control. If an effect then turns the creature white (layer 5), it gets +1/+1 from Honor of the Pure (layer 7c), becoming 3/3. If the creature's color is later changed to red (layer 5), Honor of the Pure's effect stops applying to it, and it will return to being 2/2.
Example: Gray Ogre, a 2/2 creature, is on the battlefield. An effect puts a +1/+1 counter on it (layer 7d), making it 3/3. A spell targeting it that says "Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn" resolves (layer 7c), making it 7/7. An enchantment that says "Creatures you control get +0/+2" enters the battlefield (layer 7c), making it 7/9. An effect that says "Target creature becomes 0/1 until end of turn" is applied to it (layer 7b), making it 5/8 (0/1, with +4/+4 from the resolved spell, +0/+2 from the enchantment, and +1/+1 from the counter).
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Post by Argus » 2 months ago

Yes, a 2/2 creature getting +1/+1 from a continuous effect or a counter has power/toughness of 3/3. Since its power is 3, "damage equal to its power" means damage equal to 3. To ignore those (or something like Giant Growth), it would have to specify "damage equal to its base power", and I don't think any card does that.
613.4. The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object's characteristics are instantaneous.
Example: Honor of the Pure is an enchantment that reads "White creatures you control get +1/+1." Honor of the Pure and a 2/2 black creature are on the battlefield under your control. If an effect then turns the creature white (layer 5), it gets +1/+1 from Honor of the Pure (layer 7c), becoming 3/3. If the creature's color is later changed to red (layer 5), Honor of the Pure's effect stops applying to it, and it will return to being 2/2.
Example: Gray Ogre, a 2/2 creature, is on the battlefield. An effect puts a +1/+1 counter on it (layer 7d), making it 3/3. A spell targeting it that says "Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn" resolves (layer 7c), making it 7/7. An enchantment that says "Creatures you control get +0/+2" enters the battlefield (layer 7c), making it 7/9. An effect that says "Target creature becomes 0/1 until end of turn" is applied to it (layer 7b), making it 5/8 (0/1, with +4/+4 from the resolved spell, +0/+2 from the enchantment, and +1/+1 from the counter).
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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 2 months ago

I see. Thanks for clarifying that. We had this weird idea that the ability of the redcap resolves first before the counter from grumgully get added to it.
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Post by Argus » 2 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
2 months ago
We had this weird idea that the ability of the redcap resolves first before the counter from grumgully get added to it.
The timing of Grumgully's effect is actually covered by these rules:
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.

614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.

614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Example: Voice of All says "As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color" and "Voice of All has protection from the chosen color." An effect creates a token that's a copy of Voice of All. As that token is created, the token's controller chooses a color for it.
Example: Yixlid Jailer says "Cards in graveyards lose all abilities." Scarwood Treefolk says "Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped." A Scarwood Treefolk that's put onto the battlefield from a graveyard enters the battlefield tapped.
Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says "Permanents enter the battlefield tapped." It won't affect itself, so Orb of Dreams enters the battlefield untapped.
In the case of Murderous Redcap and Grumgully, the Generous, the entering the battlefield event moves the Redcap from "on the stack" to "on the battlefield with one +1/+1 counter"; it is never on the battlefield without the counter. (And its triggered ability goes on the stack a moment after that.)
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