Torbran, Thane of Red Fell interaction with damage

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Tryno
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Post by Tryno » 4 years ago

So I am unsure how damage is actually done as doubling, reducing, etc. doesn't happen often. Is the calculation affected by priority, and if it is, do I get to determine the calculation if I have multiple effects that affect damage?

Cards
Torbran, Thane of Red Fell
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Goblin Goliath
Lightning Bolt

Scenario(s)
1. I control Torbran, and a Goblin Goliath. I activate Goblin Goliath and cast Lightning bolt. Does Lightning Bolt do 8 ([2*3]+2) or 10 ([2+3]*2)? Do I get to choose?
2. Same scenario as 1, but an opponent has Gisela, Blade of Goldnight.

Accepted Answer

by WiseWarriorQc » 4 years ago
All of these are replacement effects, recognizable by the presence of the words "if" and "instead". Such effects modify an event as it happens (here, an event of damage). The interaction of multiple such effects doesn't involve the priority system or whose turn it is; how they apply is determined by the player affected by the event (or the controller, or owner in absence of a controller, of the affected object), regardless of who controls the sources of the effects.

So it's the player being damaged or the controller of what's being damaged who chooses which of the replacement effects applies first. Then, if there still are replacement effects that would apply to the event as modified by the first effect, they choose another one to apply, and so on. So if they want, they can apply the effects in the order that hurts them the least.

In scenario 1, it's them who chooses if they get dealt 8 or 10 damage. And in scenario 2, they would take either 4 or 5 damage either way, with two ways to have it be 4 : they can halve Bolt's damage rounded up to 1 with Gisela, then have it doubled to 2, then have Torbran add 2 for a total of 4; or they can double it to 6, then apply Torbran to make it 8, then halve to 4.
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WiseWarriorQc
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Post by WiseWarriorQc » 4 years ago

All of these are replacement effects, recognizable by the presence of the words "if" and "instead". Such effects modify an event as it happens (here, an event of damage). The interaction of multiple such effects doesn't involve the priority system or whose turn it is; how they apply is determined by the player affected by the event (or the controller, or owner in absence of a controller, of the affected object), regardless of who controls the sources of the effects.

So it's the player being damaged or the controller of what's being damaged who chooses which of the replacement effects applies first. Then, if there still are replacement effects that would apply to the event as modified by the first effect, they choose another one to apply, and so on. So if they want, they can apply the effects in the order that hurts them the least.

In scenario 1, it's them who chooses if they get dealt 8 or 10 damage. And in scenario 2, they would take either 4 or 5 damage either way, with two ways to have it be 4 : they can halve Bolt's damage rounded up to 1 with Gisela, then have it doubled to 2, then have Torbran add 2 for a total of 4; or they can double it to 6, then apply Torbran to make it 8, then halve to 4.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.

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Tryno
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Post by Tryno » 4 years ago

Hummm, this is a bit confusing on why the person receiving the damage gets to decide how much damage they take. Could you explain a little bit further, or give a different, similar effect that works this way?

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Post by WiseWarriorQc » 4 years ago

Tryno wrote:
4 years ago
Hummm, this is a bit confusing on why the person receiving the damage gets to decide how much damage they take. Could you explain a little bit further, or give a different, similar effect that works this way?
I get how it can be confusing that you have no control on how your own effects apply to your opponent here, but that's just how the rules work. I'll let them speak for themselves:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below.[...]
[601.1a to c aren't applicable here, but you can check the full section in the rules if you want.]
616.1d. Any of the applicable replacement and/or prevention effects may be chosen.
616.1e. Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads "If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it," and the other is a creature that reads "If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner's library." If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
Example: Essence of the Wild reads "Creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of Essence of the Wild." A player who controls Essence of the Wild casts Rusted Sentinel, which normally enters the battlefield tapped. As it enters the battlefield, the copy effect from Essence of the Wild is applied first. As a result, it no longer has the ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped. Rusted Sentinel will enter the battlefield as an untapped copy of Essence of the Wild.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.

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