Commanders and the Deck

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Thornstrike
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Post by Thornstrike » 4 years ago

Had an odd ruling pop up last night during a Commander game. I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out this situation:

The opponent has God-Eternal Oketra as their commander. They let it die, then put it 3rd from the top. If an effect were to put it onto the bottom of their library (Such as +2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor while it's on top), would they be able to put it into the command zone instead?

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WiseWarriorQc
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Post by WiseWarriorQc » 4 years ago

No, they wouldn't. The following rule is what governs the putting in the command zone :
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner's hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
And it's not put in the library from anywhere, it's already there. Jace's effect is only changing that library's order.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.

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Post by user_938036 » 4 years ago

It very much looks like it's being put into the library from "anywhere" that anywhere just happens to be the library.

Whenever a card changes position, other than becoming closer to the top by drawing, it is being 'put' somewhere from somewhere and the commander rules is failry explicit that if it is 'put from anywhere' meaning it doesn't care where it was before so it shouldn't care that it was already in the library. For instance if it was in exile and was reexiled the replacement effect wouldn't care that it was already in exile it would just care that it was put into exile. Being put on the bottom of the library should be treated the same way, or the top for that matter. Though if it was the top of your library I don't think you would want to move it to the command zone.

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WiseWarriorQc
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Post by WiseWarriorQc » 4 years ago

user_938036 wrote:
4 years ago
It very much looks like it's being put into the library from "anywhere" that anywhere just happens to be the library.

Whenever a card changes position, other than becoming closer to the top by drawing, it is being 'put' somewhere from somewhere and the commander rules is failry explicit that if it is 'put from anywhere' meaning it doesn't care where it was before so it shouldn't care that it was already in the library. For instance if it was in exile and was reexiled the replacement effect wouldn't care that it was already in exile it would just care that it was put into exile. Being put on the bottom of the library should be treated the same way, or the top for that matter. Though if it was the top of your library I don't think you would want to move it to the command zone.
Hmmm, I was going with a preconception that the command zone rule is looking for an actual zone change, but the rule about exile that you're refering to does give an amount of credance to your interpretation.
406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn't change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
I wouldn't mind a stronger confirmation, though.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Being exiled (that is, having the exile action taken upon it) still allows the Commander to be moved to the Command Zone even from the Exile Zone due to the rule in question looking for the action, not the result.

It is a bit of a stretch to say something is being put into the library from the library just because its position in that zone has changed. Would Fossil Find cause Anafenza, the Foremost's ability to apply now that the position of the cards have changed? Granted, Fossil Find doesn't say "put". But, as maybe a better example, would the rules allow Oketra in the Library to be put in the Command Zone if someone were to use Proteus Staff on a creature that player controlled?

I think that in order to be "put" into a zone, it needs to not exist in that zone yet. That is my take on it anyway.

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Post by user_938036 » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 years ago
Being exiled (that is, having the exile action taken upon it) still allows the Commander to be moved to the Command Zone even from the Exile Zone due to the rule in question looking for the action, not the result.

It is a bit of a stretch to say something is being put into the library from the library just because its position in that zone has changed. Would Fossil Find cause Anafenza, the Foremost's ability to apply now that the position of the cards have changed? Granted, Fossil Find doesn't say "put". But, as maybe a better example, would the rules allow Oketra in the Library to be put in the Command Zone if someone were to use Proteus Staff on a creature that player controlled?

I think that in order to be "put" into a zone, it needs to not exist in that zone yet. That is my take on it anyway.
As you pointed out Fossil Find obviously wouldn't have that effect because it specifically uses the word reorder as opposed to the word put. As for the Oketra question I don't actually understand at all. If you use the staff you would hit Oketra wouldn't you?

My take away is simply if a card says to "put" something somewhere you are quite obviously "put"ting it there so anything that cares about "put"ting things places should care. If you reorder or shuffle you aren't "put"ting anything anywhere. In the same way that if you choose you aren't targeting, unless of course you are choosing a target. But the same applies if you shuffle then "put" the shuffled cards somewhere.

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