[Unofficial thread] - Theros Beyond Death Previews: Pioneer

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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

Hi, not sure if it's ok to create a new cards discussion thread like this.. so I put "unofficial" in thread title.
Sorry, got excited to discuss new cards. :)

Treeshaker Chimera looks good. Large body, shinen of life's roar ability, and ancestral recall on death. Another card for reanimator strategies?
Last edited by The Fluff 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Reanimator feels weird in Pioneer. The payoffs aren't unstoppable wins (except maybe Ulamog with no cast triggers?) and the reanimate spells cost nearly what the creatures themselves cost. I do have to admit though, that bringing back that Chimera would certainly end in some card advantage.

Personally, I'm looking at Ashiok, Nightmare Muse and wondering if that'll work somewhere. My initial shock to be getting what looks like a high profile UB walker has subsided and I'm mulling over how it fits in a deck. +1 is clearly just good stuff but I'm unsure if the other abilities are worth having around; are they just a token machine or is there a real purpose here?

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Post by Dusk » 4 years ago

Ashiok works best, i feel, in an exile based midrange or control deck. His ult lets you cast any of your opponent's face up exiled stuff, not just items Ashiok has exiled, which is really potent. The other important thing is that the card is cast, letting you take advantage of any cast triggers. Esper looks to be the best for this. Void Shatter is an exiling counter spell, white and black both get decent amounts of exile. I also believe Rest in Peace is in Pioneer, as is Leyline of the Void. Through Leyline you could reasonably remove white and go more into Dimir. The other versions of Ashiok also fuel Nightmare Muse's ult.
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

I certainly agree that there's benefit in the other abilities. I'm just uncertain how often they'll actually come up. -7 is fairly steep and the hidden text of "you lose the Ashiok (if it has only 7 loyalty)" is an additional turn you may have to delay.

The -3 is the most interesting one, in my opinion. Getting your opponent hellbent is suddenly a very powerful thing to do, but from what I've seen of the format, not a likely thing to accomplish.

The -7 is stunning, but does it compare to the other major payoffs? Most Emblems have much more inevitability, but I suppose they might be harder to accomplish. It'll be a balance, but I am looking forward to Settle the Wreckage, untap, -7: put your beefy attackers into play.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

The new ashiok looks indeed strong. 2/3 that exiles, and it's a +1 ability. The -3 somehow encourages discarding cards from opponent's hand, so that the returned card is itself exiled? Interesting to see what decks this walker goes into..

Do humans need another lord effect? Victory's Envoy looks like it can be used as a single in some decks. As a mid-late game pump.
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Post by FoilSquared » 4 years ago

Don't forget that Kaya, Orzhov Usurper exists. I would like to see Esper Exile become a thing, adding white also gives us good sideboard options such as Rest in Peace and Declaration in Stone, as well as removal like Banishing Light.

I would put Victory's Envoy as maybe a one-of in Mono White Human Weenies, although Benalish Marshal kind of does its job better.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

esper exile seems interesting. Kaya help get rid of early threats, and ashiok gives the deck midgame strength. Would have been nicer if we had soulherder legal here - herder should be included if they're gonna make pioneer horizons.
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Post by FoilSquared » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
esper exile seems interesting. Kaya help get rid of early threats, and ashiok gives the deck midgame strength. Would have been nicer if we had soulherder legal here - herder should be included if they're gonna make pioneer horizons.
I can see two builds for this deck: either a midrange build or a control build.

For the control build:
Deputy of Detention
Detention Sphere
Dissipate
Horribly Awry
Ixalan's Binding
Settle the Wreckage
Syncopate
Anguished Unmaking
Unmoored Ego
Utter End
Vraska's Contempt
Summary Dismissal

For the midrange build:
Wasteland Straggler
Ulamog's Nullifier
Trapjaw Tyrant
Transgress the Mind
Spell Queller
Sin Collector
Seal Away
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Kitesail Freebooter
Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
Hostage Taker
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Dimensional Infiltrator
Crypt Incursion
Conclave Tribunal
Charming Prince
Banisher Priest
Cast Out
Brain Maggot
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Apostle of Purifying Light
Angel of Condemnation
Agent of Erebos

This isn't a definitive list (I excluded the cards that we've talked about already) but I think it's a good place to start thinking about building decks, I'll brew up some lists tonight and post them tomorrow, probably.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

[mention]FoilSquared[/mention]

maybe we should create a thread for it at developing? :)

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

56589-underworld-breach-full.jpg
Underworld Breach looks really strong. Maybe this card will make graveyard strategies good in pioneer?
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

I am both worried by and okay with Underworld Breach. It has some serious potential to be busted, but it also has a chance to be a cool mostly fair card. I guess time will tell.

I still this this has the most potential with Time Raveler as a way to slowly get back all your walkers or reuse sweepers.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

costs 2, a cmc liked by competitive decks. The exile 3 for the escape cost, plus sacrificing the enchantment at end step should probably keep this in check. Also, leyline of the void is legal in pioneer.. one of the best safety valves against yard strategies.
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
one of the best safety valves against yard strategies.
What if we just didn't need safety valves?

Not to say anything is busted right now. I don't honestly think anything is, but in many cases I feel that safety valves are justification for printing broken things. That's how we get into "sideboard wars" opposed to just shifting your list a bit to try to fight a different strategy. Like when boarding against aggro was about lowering your curve a bit and putting in some more blockers. Instead we get into this "I am running 4 Leyline of the Void because I'll lose otherwise".

Would they have printed Underworld Breach if not for Leyline (and a few others)? Is that not the very definition of creating sideboard wars? For every low cost card with Indestructible, we force people to either race or have exile. The same can be said about many many other strategies that are hit by only narrow answers and I think decks can only take so many angles before interaction is virtually worthless. That's typically why I dislike seeing resiliency and recursion at low costs.

I feel like all that is yet an incomplete thought though.

I hope this card isn't busted. I can see how it'll be a pretty powerful tool, but I hope it doesn't go too far.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

I feel that printing safety valves has always been necessary, without them wotc cannot print the stronger cards. Strong cards are needed to excite people, sell packs.
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Ya, I feel that; they do need to sell packs.

It's a tough line to walk. The game would likely stagnate if they didn't push some, but they also need to be aware of the problems they cause when they do things like enable narrowly hated lines of play. Removal just often doesn't keep up to those powerful lines so they institute prison cards like RiP and Void to just say "you cannot do that".

On the other hand, they're spoiling some cool stuff, lol. They just gave us Idyllic Tutor! Atris, Oracle of Half-Truths looks like a really skill intensive and fun card. I'm noticing a good deal of legends in this set as well. Sort of pausing over what legendary synergies are out there.

EDIT: We did it boys! Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista. We have our next ban!

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Post by Mapccu » 4 years ago

Let's see if they do what's right and ban before people start chasing packs and tournaments or if heliod gets the oko treatment.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

[mention]Arkmer[/mention]

Atris really reminds me of fact or fiction. Although more dangerous since it's the opponent who sees the cards.

The ballista combo seems ready to be banned.
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

[mention]Mapccu[/mention]
Reddit is arguing that Ballista is the correct ban of the two. I might just be offloading scales entirely if that's the case. The argument is essentially that Ballista is degenerate and Heliod might give white a chance in Pioneer. I'm not so hot on the degenerate claim but it has some merit I guess. The Heliod claim is more accurate in my opinion.

What will be interesting is how quickly will WotC ban the combo. Will they preemptively ban it to prevent an extended period of abuse between bans, will they do it in the following B&R, will we wait multiple B&Rs to see it go, or will it just stay? It's clearly just as bad as the Cat Combo deck as far as win condition and in some cases worse. For them to not act on this combo would be negligence and a continued trend of inconsistency.

[mention]The Fluff[/mention]
The fact or fiction with semi knowledge is a really cool way to drive the ability. There's certainly some mind games where the face up single might be better than the two face down lands but you have no idea until you pick. I hope they have more cool and fun things in store.

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Post by Mapccu » 4 years ago

I agree with reddit. Ballista is still really great if you can give it deathtouch, is great in scales, or just generally a good card.

I really hope they take action soon. If anything it'll send a clear signal to the secondary market early and help keep prices in check.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

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I'm liking that the new thassa has a soulherder ability. Some more help for blink decks. :)
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Post by Mapccu » 4 years ago

I dunno about thassa for pioneer, we don't have very many crazy ETBs. You'd want creatures with ETBs you're looking for already and none of them strike me as "build a deck around me."

I could be wrong though. Maybe she's worthwhile with some of the merfolk, like tidebinder mage or harbinger of the tides could do well with her.

Top end you can just blink master of waves every turn because why not win more. :cool:

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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Thassa works with Master of Waves because it returns before state based effects are checked between abilities.

Edit: I realized after hitting submit that this was literally said right above me hours prior. I can read, I promise.

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

I'm kind of worried about new Heliod with Walking Ballista but it probably won't be too bad, probably easy to disrupt

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

[mention]Arkmer[/mention]

does not have a home in pioneer right now, but I like that new Thassa is an indestructible conjuror's closet that costs one less, also cannot be countered by stub denial since it's a creature. Maybe someday a competitive blink deck will be created in this format? I will be waiting for that.

[mention]motleyslayer[/mention]

maybe let's see first how the combo performs in tournaments before passing judgment.
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
Arkmer

does not have a home in pioneer right now, but I like that new Thassa is an indestructible conjuror's closet that costs one less, also cannot be countered by stub denial since it's a creature. Maybe someday a competitive blink deck will be created in this format? I will be waiting for that.

motleyslayer

maybe let's see first how the combo performs in tournaments before passing judgment.
Yeah only time will tell how broken it'll be. 2 card combos can be quite good

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