[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1582
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

[mention]metalmusic_4[/mention]

agreed. And it's probably why there's a big difference in prices between the two, tc is cents while dtt is 5-6 dollars. Oh, and our old friend drs is still legal here as well - I wonder how long he can dodge the hammer? :)

And one more thing. I'm so glad that w6 , ghost quarter, and Blood Moon are all not legal here! It's hard enough making a stable three color mana base without the proper fetch lands.. getting disrupted by w6 + quarter, and moon would make it much worse.
Expand Signature
Image
Quarantined Rapport 2 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 8 months ago

gkourou wrote:
8 months ago
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 19-12-10-0

15 out of 32 decks are playing Oko in this Pioneer PTQ.

New set of Pioneer PTQ's made their appearance online. 11-15/32 oko decks in each one. Yeah, we need to wait a little bit, but it seems that at the moment, it's warping the metagame too hard.
I do see a lot of oko on these lists, but I also a lot of nykthos. There is only ONE pithing needle in the top 8 side boards which would hit either. I think there has to be some sideboard changes.

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 280
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by Arkmer » 8 months ago

Pithing Needle doesn't hit Nykthos. It is a mana ability.

I would stay on the Oko is an issue train anyway. Oko just invalidates so many creatures and repeatedly so. Doom Blade at least is a one and done. Oko may not remove the creature but no one is lining up to play vanilla 3/3s. If WotC wants a format with interesting creatures, they're going to ban Oko. He forces everything to have haste, hexproof, protection, +1/+1 counters, or be smaller than a 3/3. That just screams dull to me. No interesting abilities, no synergies, lords are a waste, high profile artifacts are null, your first Pithing Needle must name Oko then you can target what you like if you get a second.

Nykthos still requires support and might encourage interaction in a way WotC likes (really spitballing here), so that might be reason enough to keep it. I do think if they ban Nykthos, they need to unban Leyline. I'm fairly certain we know why Leyline was banned and a swap there would be a nice thing to see.

stille_nacht
Posts: 7
Joined: 10 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by stille_nacht » 8 months ago

Slightly different topic: Why is GB so weak in pioneer? At first glance, it seems to have a lot of the things that make it a solid choice in modern, with weaker field to fight? Is the loss of liliana just that big?

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 8 months ago

Arkmer wrote:
8 months ago
Pithing Needle doesn't hit Nykthos. It is a mana ability.
Thank you, I thought it would. I defined mana ability incorrectly.

User avatar
hoser2
Posts: 202
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by hoser2 » 8 months ago

yoman5's opinionated take on the evolving meta with associated Reddit thread.
Having lost 2 out of 3 in my last Pioneer outing with 4C Company Humans to Supreme Verdicts, I can believe that control is back on the menu.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1582
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

nice article, thanks for posting it. So that's why verdict suddenly increased in price.
Expand Signature
Image
Quarantined Rapport 2 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 7 months ago

I've not been following mtg this week due to family issues. Are the ban targets still #1 oko, #2 nexus of fate, #3 nykthos, #4 dig through time or are people pretty happy with the meta now?

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 280
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

[mention]metalmusic_4[/mention]
I think all but #4 are fairly common complaints. Nykthos seems to waffle between itself and Teferi, Time Raveler.

@thread
The official B&R for the other formats has some relevant info in it as well. I don't think this affects Pioneer for now, but they will no longer be posting dates for B&R announcements. The idea is that they want to be able to move the date if they feel necessary. Going forward it will always be on a Monday but we will not know which, the next one is in January.

They also mentioned that they made this change to try to avoid players canceling plans to attend events. They are seeing attendance drops it seems.

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 280
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

I'm surprised no one posted the Pioneer bans!

Oko, Thief of Crowns and Nexus of Fate are banned effective December 17, 2019.

I haven't read the full article yet, but I'll probably drop in my two cents here as an edit in a minute when I link the actual B&R.

Was a fast read. Oko Food was getting twice as many wins with a 60% over all win rate. Nexus was posting similar, but lesser, numbers with their hardest matchup being Oko Food. Nexus was banned because it would likely rise to power after the Oko ban.

Personally, I like that they're talking about the numbers and saying that Oko was out of control and Nexus was only being held down by Oko. Taking that preemptive step and banning Nexus in the interest of format health is something I am glad to see, only because they did it with the additional information about Oko Food holding it back.

And on a super biased note: OKO IS BANNED!!! PAAAARTY!!!

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 7 months ago

I don't think anyone will defend these 2 cards. They go into the same category as field of the dead, which is overly dominant and miserable to play against.

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 203
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Copenhagen
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Post by Simto » 7 months ago

I think they're going to hit a good sweet spot now. I'm excited for it for sure!

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1582
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by The Fluff » 7 months ago

ah, Oko has finally been caught by the one whom he stole the crown from... banned. Oh well, I guess it's for the best of the format for him to be gone here.
Expand Signature
Image
Quarantined Rapport 2 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 467
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Post by drmarkb » 7 months ago

No problem with Oko ban,

I am worried about the nexus ban- if it is on power level I have no issue, but if we ban what people hate- so called 'miserable play patterns' we might go down the route of banning everything that does not facilitate very narrow archetpes- which I don't want to do. If draft feels like constructed, I will do neither. I do constructed to get away from creatures staring at each other, especially ground based board stalls that infest ELD and War ots before that. Better flexible or cantrip uncounterable or hexproof hate for nexus type cards would be more preferable than banning, their utter faliure to make good hate cards for most of the past seven years is what makes us ban seven mana instants. The other point is that Nexus should have been exiled, a clear design error like Oko being too high in loyalty.

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 7 months ago

The b&r announcement talks about the dominance of nexus, not the miserable play patterns. That is me just me usinf words like miserable play patterns. To be clear, I don't support bans based on play patterns, it should be primarily about dominance. But the bans this week hit both wickets for both dominance and miserable play pattern, which just makes it easier.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 621
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 40 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by motleyslayer » 7 months ago

I'm fine with Oko being banned in another format and I'm not surprised nexus got banned, deck seemed busted

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 467
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 64 times

Post by drmarkb » 7 months ago

Nexus type decks should be easy to hose if wotc design did its job. Sadly they don't.

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 280
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

I don't think many people are really sweating the idea that they can't take strings of consecutive turns. They highlighted in the B&R that the Nexus deck's toughest matchup was the Oko list they banned Oko for. Removing the toughest match for the #2 deck makes it the #1 deck. I think their stance on aggressive bans saved us a week of watching our opponent end their turn by claiming another turn and I feel that's a net plus.

I hope going forward we continue to see a nice split between the three main archetypes with some splashing of decks from outside those. It looks like UW is leading the control pack, something many people have called will be the dominant control type because of T3feri and Verdict. There's a wide variety of aggro and midrange decks running around as well with what seems like much less of a consensus about which is the best.

For now, I don't think I would make any major changes. Seems like we're starting to get down to a more level field among the archetypes.

What frustrates me though is that WotC is showing some real good effort to balance this format. Why is this new? They didn't have some epiphany when they decided on a new format. When is this diligence going to slide off? The long run worries me, but right now I am very happy with the direction.

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 7 months ago

I was checking out the meta on mtgtop8 just now and noticed there is VERY little combo going around. I know copy cat was banned and aetherworks marvel is only so-so but it seems there has to be a few combo decks yet to be discovered or tuned properly.
Or what is holding combo back?
Or are some other decks miscatagorized? Hardened scales and devotion decks are kinda combos.
I think there has to be so development avalible in the aetherworks marvel / energy decks, jeskia ascendancy decks and im sure there are other major combos out there. Does anyone have any ideas on why combo is so lacking?

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 280
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

I'm surprised Twiddle Storm isn't seeing play from more combo players. The deck has been performing well against most of the meta decks I see at my LGS.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1582
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by The Fluff » 7 months ago

Or are some other decks miscatagorized?
that is a possibility. The format is very young.

Things will come together eventually.
Expand Signature
Image
Quarantined Rapport 2 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

ascribe
Posts: 5
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 1 time

Post by ascribe » 7 months ago

Miserable play patterns are definitely a reason to get rid of a card. Nexus is in a whole class by itself in that regard as one person is playing while the other isn't. Ultimately, it is a game and should be fun.

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 568
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 217 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by ktkenshinx » 7 months ago

OP updated. Sorry about the delay!
ascribe wrote:
7 months ago
Miserable play patterns are definitely a reason to get rid of a card. Nexus is in a whole class by itself in that regard as one person is playing while the other isn't. Ultimately, it is a game and should be fun.
It's very important to note that so-called miserable play patterns alone are not enough to ban a deck. Nexus had a series of other offenses with play patterns as an "additional factor." Specifically, Nexus decks had the second highest win-rates and high 5-0 prevalence, with the banned deck (Simic Food) as one of its few bad matchups. We can't misinterpret this ban to mean Wizards will ban any deck with an allegedly frustrating play pattern and long match. Other offenses will likely need to be present.
Expand Signature
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 112
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Post by Albegas » 7 months ago

I think it's also worth mentioning that Nexus is particularly problematic in Arena since it has the capacity to be looped indefinitely, which makes Nexus problematic without overhauling Arena. No other "frustrating" deck that I can think in Pioneer or Modern causes such an issue

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Post by metalmusic_4 » 7 months ago

Nexus and oko being miserable to play against was just the final nail in the coffin, they were certainly banned primarily for their dominance over the meta game. Dominance has to be the driving factor in any ban imo.

I don't think either of these, field of the dead, copter or felidar guardian will EVER be unbanned. The cards specificly banned due to green devotion could come back if nykthos itself is ever deemed too problematic and banned.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Pioneer”