[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 202
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by robertleva » 2 months ago

I ne'er liked how green started getting all the blue cantrip type spells in the first place. I'm also on the Ban OUT bandwagon.
Expand Signature
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

MAGUSZANIN
Posts: 20
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by MAGUSZANIN » 2 months ago

robertleva wrote:
2 months ago
I ne'er liked how green started getting all the blue cantrip type spells in the first place. I'm also on the Ban OUT bandwagon.
I don't look at it as a bandwagon thing. I look at it as it digging 5 cards deep to find either a threat or land, but not an answer, all for zero mana. The fact that it inherently benefits proactive strategies over reactive ones, and specifically in Green where the best threats already congregate just makes it worse.

Honestly, thank the almighty robot policeman they didn't make it get 'Walkers too, because if they had we would be in even deeper. It's still probably the best consistency tool in the format, which is a shame, because Blue doesn't have anything even close.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 214
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Post by drmarkb » 2 months ago

Ouat is too strong, and gives consistency in formats that are consistently denied consistency. In Legacy it is fine, but Modern onwards is not supposed to have that consistency, especially with no deck build cost.
For me in order to get a balanced game, we have to be prepared to be upset the sulk puss who does not like it when he(and it normally is a he) casts their creature and it does not resolve or it gets killed before they get to use it. Wotc still seem to have not learned that if Jonny big monster is happy- he can cast his big monster and nothing causes him to reevaluate life choices, then every other player with half a brain will be casting it too, if it is the best thing in the format. Lo and behold, Jonny big monster's new fave card is every other sod's nightmare as there follows three months of being smashed by an emrakul t4 every sodding game.
This is how bans happen most of the time- the hoser is rubbish, can't be drawn or turns up a year too late like Kataki did after rav block. The formats need answers and they are none too clever at making good answer cards, and for most of pioneer's pool the answers are way behind the threats, which is exacerbated if you start dishing out consistency to the threat decks.

User avatar
gkourou
Izzet Mage
Posts: 406
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

Another PTQ in and literally 80% of the decks in the top 16 are either playing once upon a time or field and are green or playing smuggler's copter.
I believe those three cards are all goners.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 202
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by robertleva » 2 months ago

Field and OUT are obnoxious and lead to unfun, one sided play patterns. Dump em both. Smugglers copter in the other hand Im not so sure about, At the end of the day it's a dude that swings at you, Pioneer should have answers for it.
Expand Signature
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 93
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Copenhagen
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Post by Simto » 2 months ago

I wonder how safe Smuggler's Copter is to buy for Pioneer... I mean it dies to Fatal Push and other stuff people have access to, but yeah... I want it for my B/G Steel Leaf Stompy deck and B/G Saproling deck, but it'll probably get banned. It's definitely in Sauron's gaze.

User avatar
gkourou
Izzet Mage
Posts: 406
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

I think you are right in Smuggler's Copter being fine on the surface, as there are answers in Pioneer. When it was banned in Standard, there wasn't even an instant speed removal, if I recall. Then Fatal push and Abrade were added.
On the other card, the looting effect seems to be too much in that Mono black aggro deck, which is also discarding creatures that get reanimated later in the game, and the deck is probably one of the best decks in Pioneer at the moment. Also, it's being heavily played, and Wizards see those kind of cards as unifiers that make Pioneer aggro dominated, which is true at the moment.

It might be one of the cards that get a free pass for some more days, but I doubt it will still be legal 2 weeks from now.

Tomorrow: I expect Smuggler's Copter to be banned and maybe Once Upon a Time. Or just give it one more week to get more data on it.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 324
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Titles & Recognition

Post by motleyslayer » 2 months ago

the mono black aggro deck seems to be putting up great numbers. recursive threats and copter seem really good

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 208
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Post by Arkmer » 2 months ago

Are we assuming that the Pioneer bans come with the rest of the bans or will we see them later in the day like the other Pioneer announcements have been?

Mono Black Aggro does seem well positioned. They also have removal tools available to them if the need ever comes up.
Expand Signature

Brewing

User avatar
gkourou
Izzet Mage
Posts: 406
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

We will see the Pioneer announcement later in the day, just like the previous ones. They made that clear.

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 152
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 months ago

Its pretty clear OUaT needs to go. Field is next because they learned their lesson with Standard and aren't going to wait to give it a second chance or time for the format to adept because Standard learned us that you can't. Last one is Copter. Its homogeneous in agrobuilds and therefore will be banned.

Throne of Eldraine is overpushed and its cards are dominating both Standard and Pioneer an will so for the next years.

Oko
Questing Beast
Brazen Borrower
OUaT
Fabled Passage
The Royal Scions
The Great Henge
Murderous Rider
Gilded Goose
Emry
5 Castles
Fires of Invention
Wicked Wolf
Charming Prince
Lovestruck Beast
Drown in the Loch
Into the Story
Yorvo
Rankle, Master of Pranks
Feaburrow Elder
Stonecoil Serpent
Wildborn Preserver
Wishclaw Talisman
Mystical Dispute
Witch's Vengeance
Doom Foretold
Deafening Silence
Witching Well
Bonecrusher Giant
... I am sure I am even forgetting some

The amount of power put into this set equivalents 2 years of releases.

User avatar
gkourou
Izzet Mage
Posts: 406
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

The recent Modern Challenge is featuring 5 Mono black aggro decks with Smuggler's Copter in the top 8.
No.1, No.2, No.3, No.4, No. 7 are ALL the same deck: Mono black aggro /w Copter. Also, the No.8 deck is an Ensoul Smuggler's Copter deck.

User avatar
Arkmer
Opinionated and Wrong
Posts: 208
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Minnesota
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Post by Arkmer » 2 months ago

Feels like Copter is playable everywhere at no disadvantage and is pushing a top deck?

I saw a few instances where it was Copter blocks Copter as the only flying on the field. Is this similar enough to Jace vs Jace in older rules?
Expand Signature

Brewing

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 548
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 138 times

Post by idSurge » 2 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
2 months ago
Once Upon a Time does look too strong. Turn one free ancient stirrings effect in any deck that has green, provided Once Upon a Time is in the opening hand.
Which it always will be if needed because.........London Mulligan.
Expand Signature
B
EDH: Vilis, Broker of Blood

Mtgthewary
Posts: 178
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Post by Mtgthewary » 2 months ago

It started... Mono black today place 1-4 and 7 on mtgo Pioneer. It seems Pioneer will need a lot of fixing and it will be funny watching people getting angry if bans don't stop soon. First all green, now black?

User avatar
gkourou
Izzet Mage
Posts: 406
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 163 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

No changes in Pioneer. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... nouncement
I think this is a huge mistake. Once and Copter are literally dominating the format. Guess they want their last box to retain a little bit of value. If they banned Once here as well, the box would be useless.

Mtgthewary
Posts: 178
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Post by Mtgthewary » 2 months ago

Why ban green if black dominated? Makes no sense at this moment

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 152
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 months ago

Next week no changes either so at least another 2 weeks the same story. Maybe they want to postpone more bans from Throne of Eldraine after Christmas so people first spend their money on it. Pathetic company. Huge mistake if you invest in Pioneer at the moment. I will wait until January until I make my move.

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 425
Joined: 7 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 134 times
Contact:

Titles & Recognition

Post by ktkenshinx » 2 months ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
2 months ago
Next week no changes either so at least another 2 weeks the same story. Maybe they want to postpone more bans from Throne of Eldraine after Christmas so people first spend their money on it. Pathetic company. Huge mistake if you invest in Pioneer at the moment. I will wait until January until I make my move.
There is just no rush to ban cards in Pioneer. Why do you have to be so aggressively hyperbolic ("Pathetic company") in this case? I'd rather Wizards wait a few weeks to gather extra data prior to making any bans. This increases the chance that they make the right bans, which supports long-term format health. Just because they can ban cards weekly doesn't mean they should. It's not like off-season/pre-season Pioneer is hurting for players or event attendance as a function of an unhealthy metagame. Just let the metagame settle and if it settles somewhere broken, wait for bans. I'm all for more bans in Pioneer; they just need to be aimed at the right cards. More data makes that more likely.
Expand Signature
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 548
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 138 times

Post by idSurge » 2 months ago

Yeah there is no rush here. I'm fairly confident they will pick off the right cards, if there is a need.
Expand Signature
B
EDH: Vilis, Broker of Blood

Mtgthewary
Posts: 178
Joined: 5 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Post by Mtgthewary » 2 months ago

Like they did in modern?

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 548
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 138 times

Post by idSurge » 2 months ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
2 months ago
Like they did in modern?
No, my view on Modern is pretty clear. Its an after thought, and on decline. Its been bad for over a year, probably 18 months. Wizards has not managed it appropriately for years.
Expand Signature
B
EDH: Vilis, Broker of Blood

MAGUSZANIN
Posts: 20
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: he / him
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by MAGUSZANIN » 2 months ago

I don't think there's anyone here who thinks that Pioneer will not get at least two more bans before it goes live next year. One of those bans is likely to be from Green, and one is likely to be Copter. And there could be more after the metagame settles and some of the combo decks get refined.

That said, I'm in no rush to ban anything right now, barring maybe Copter. And since it's possible Copter will stabilize at a reasonable level across the aggro decks of the format, we may not need to ban it, though I personally don't expect that to happen. Next week will likely see it banned, but giving people a chance to start maindecking cards like Abrade can't hurt in the long run.

User avatar
Pip_Maxwell
Posts: 30
Joined: 2 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Post by Pip_Maxwell » 2 months ago

Obviously more bans will be needed until the meta is just diverse enough for WotC's liking.

User avatar
The Fluff
hell kitty
Posts: 901
Joined: 6 months ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Cape Suzette
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 47 times
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 2 months ago

I'm just hoping Nissa, Flayer, and tracker would not be banned.
Expand Signature
Image
OE 2016 // POF 2018 // Super Bunny Man // Rachie
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Pioneer”