[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

[The Fluff]

We have new dual snow lands from KHM. Would these be played in pionee.. what do people think?

[motleyslayer]

I think it depends on how powerful snow as a mechanic is in pioneer (I think snow will probably have a similar impact in pioneer as other older formats).

The cycling lands have the benefit of being able to cycle when you don't need the land but the snow duals enable snow

[The Fluff]

cycling lands? I did not realize there are cycling lands legal in pioneer. From what expansion are they?

[motleyslayer]

I guess i should have been more clear, the cycling dual lands from Amonkhet

[The Fluff]

I see.. thanks for the reminder about them.

unfortunately, my pioneer deck is rw aggro and cannot use the Amonkhet duals..

[The Fluff]

Several bans again.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... nouncement

glad to see the T3feri ban. One reason I have shifting ceratops in my dino deck, is because of this guy.

[Arkmer]

Might actually get me to play again. We'll see where things shake out. Need local shops to start hosting again first and they're all reorganized to minimize table top area and maximize retail space. They seem to have no expectation that they may be hosting again soon.

[The Fluff]

serious question. What do people think are the chances of Deathrite Shaman being banned in this format? Thinking of getting a copy or two for my pioneer elves.

[Bearscape]

Without fetchlands, DRS seems like a fine card. I don't see it getting banned in Pioneer any time soon

[robertleva]

If you can find a way to profitably use DRS in Pioneer please post the list. I have not gotten much mileage out of him, despite trying him in multiple different shells. The fetchlands are just too crucial to making him reliably acceleration. Without that part of the card working, the rest of the card does not justify the deck space.

[The Fluff]

Reason I wanted to get some is.. saw two drs added to an elf listed at top 8 on MTGDECKS, but for some reason.. could not find that list anymore. sorry.

would not really be getting after some thinking, as they looked bad without much good fetch in this format.

[motleyslayer]

without fetches and Wasteland , DRS seems perfectly reasonable. I don't think it will get banned anytime soon

[The Fluff]

on another thing. What decks are currently good now?

have not seen much news, so asking here as other people might know.

[robertleva]

@fluff: 5 color Bring to Light with Yorion seems to consistently beat my Mono Green Ramp, no easy feat. Mono green ramp into 3cc fatties Garruks Harbinger and Steel Leaf on turn 2, followed by a CoCo turn 3 is very powerful right now. Rhonas and Harbinger give black (and others) all sorts of problems. Rhonas is worth building around in Pioneer to be honest, indestructible is OP right now.

Another way to take Mono Green ramp is into superfriends Vivien Arcbow Ranger and Karn the Great Creator. Both ramp stratetgies have their merits and are viable right now, as well as the aforementioned 5c BTL deck. Then we have Rakdos-Kroxa-Lurrus decks doing well. Gyruda is another deck I see doing strong things. Companions in general seem to have made a comeback.

[The Fluff]

thanks for updating me on the state of the pioneer meta. Could probably handle creature decks, as my main deck is Abzan with 3 Vraska's Contempt in the main, with 2cmc white exile in the sideboard coming in if necessary.

agreed on companions making a comeback. I've seen Lurrus price online, and it's back to 13-15 dollars. Actually very tempted to get one Lurrus.. put it into my scg cart, but took it out again in the morning.. because I fear it might be banned someday here in pioneer.

[robertleva]

Ive even seen the cat elemental companion deck a few times. It's got weaknesses sure but tis a fair deck in Pioneer so its a thing like all the rest.

[robertleva]

https://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/sha ... quill.html Seems reasonable for Pioneer. You get to choose whether or not the effect happens and getting a2/1 flying buddy right away seems quite nice. I'm interested.

Play Shadrix, create token, opponents get the counter.
Next turn Shadrix you get the counter, deal 1 damage to opponent, swing for 9.

So he can potentially swing for 10 in the air the turn after he comes out plus a lot of extras. Nice.

[robertleva]

Pioneer in MTGO is pretty dead since MH2 released. It seems there is one demographic that bounces between the two depending on which is more interesting. Right now, Modern has a lot of strong toys and Pioneer is pretty dull. We saw the opposite about this time last year. Interesting.

[The Fluff]

yeah, most of the action is currently on modern. At salvation, I'm in a thread with at least 4 other people, who are actively brewing things.. and most of the brewing involves cards from MH2.

Pioneer is calm right now.

[motleyslayer]

I'm kind of hoping that with more places returning to paper, there will be more interest in pioneer but I don't know what will happen. People seem pretty uninterested in the format, which is a shame because it started off so good

[drmarkb]

Realistically, Pioneer needs to replace Standard.
The incorrect assumption from the start of the format has been that Modern supplants Legacy, and Pioneer is the new Modern. This is garbage, because Legacy cannot and won't go anywhere- literally in fact as it cannot grow due to RL, but can not shrink due to (a) players enjoying it more than most formats (b) strong niche community support including proxy events and (c) the cost of the RL cards means that they are safe investments to buy and until dual lands from revised are 3-5K plus, there will always be cheap copies that people are not afraid to play with and (d) there are non RL competitive decks, unlike Vintage. It won't go, and what little exists is not going to be replaced. Modern has for my money been more likely to suffer, as it has been traditionally a format played by various groups who have very different ideas about what they want, but MH2 has shown that it is still a cash cow, and online, like Legacy, it thrives.

Legacy won't go. If Modern survives, Pioneer gets squeezed.
Standard, Modern, Pioneer, Legacy is one too many paper formats, even given the relatively low level of the last of them. Realistically, it could be that Standard goes, but Arena needs standard. One possibility is for Arena to become Standard, Historic, and for paper to be Pioneer, Modern with smatterings of Legacy. That solves all the issues- so many cards in standard releases are for draft and edh now anyway, sales won't always be driven by Standard.

[Guardman]

Realistically, Pioneer needs to replace Standard.
The incorrect assumption from the start of the format has been that Modern supplants Legacy, and Pioneer is the new Modern. This is garbage, because Legacy cannot and won't go anywhere- literally in fact as it cannot grow due to RL, but can not shrink due to (a) players enjoying it more than most formats (b) strong niche community support including proxy events and (c) the cost of the RL cards means that they are safe investments to buy and until dual lands from revised are 3-5K plus, there will always be cheap copies that people are not afraid to play with and (d) there are non RL competitive decks, unlike Vintage. It won't go, and what little exists is not going to be replaced. Modern has for my money been more likely to suffer, as it has been traditionally a format played by various groups who have very different ideas about what they want, but MH2 has shown that it is still a cash cow, and online, like Legacy, it thrives.

Legacy won't go. If Modern survives, Pioneer gets squeezed.
Standard, Modern, Pioneer, Legacy is one too many paper formats, even given the relatively low level of the last of them. Realistically, it could be that Standard goes, but Arena needs standard. One possibility is for Arena to become Standard, Historic, and for paper to be Pioneer, Modern with smatterings of Legacy. That solves all the issues- so many cards in standard releases are for draft and edh now anyway, sales won't always be driven by Standard.

The problem is that Standard is either the second or third most popular formats. It only loses to playing whatever cards I have and maybe commander. They aren't going to kill one of their biggest and most profitable formats for Pioneer. Plus, Standard is really the cash cow of magic. It's where the majority of the money comes from since the combination of lower cost of entry compared to other formats and constantly rotating format means, paradoxily, it is the first true format most players experience (with the possible exception of commander nowadays), while also forcing people to buy more packs by constantly releasing new cards that are relevant to the format.

The two ways I can see Pioneer survive is either supplant Modern or Arena falters and everyone goes back to MTGO. Neither of which is likely. The third way, is that WotC forces Pioneer to live by refusing to let it die. But that is unlikely to grow the format and mostly leave it as a zombie.

Honestly, I just don't see a good outcome for Pioneer in the future. It just has too many things stacked against it.

[motleyslayer]

I feel standard essentially being one of their main cash cows (alongside limited, since people need to buy packs to play that) is the biggest reason why they'll never get rid of it. Another possible reason is that it's probably the easiest to get into as it only uses new sets, which are the most available in stores. I feel some people actually enjoy rotation to an extent because it keeps it fresh by knocking cards out of the format

While I feel pioneer could have been so much more than it ended up being, I feel it was kind of announced and handled poorly. While WotC obviously couldn't control Covid 19 happening less than 6 months after pioneer was announced, the pandemic certainly hurt paper play. I feel the fact they banned more cards every week for the first few months kinda scared people away at first as they didn't wanna risk buying into a deck only to have it banned soon. Then inverter, breach and mono white heliod decks being allowed to exist for so log didn't help either.

I feel both modern and legacy both kind of have their dedicated player bases that will make them hard to replace. Legacy players are often people who have been playing for so long, have the staples already and enjoy playing super old cards. While modern isn't as old, it kind of has its players who are known as deck specialists to an extent too. People in both formats probably just have their decks though.

One thing I don't know if I have an answer for is how pioneer could have stood out in a game with so many eternal/non rotating formats

[drmarkb]

Comp MTG is sooooo far below Commander now. Standard was the huge cash cow. Draft was too- one draft pod at one event meant a box sale with just 8 people, after prizes. Most Std consumers bought a box or two per 3 months- two orize supported draft pods basically. I think now they can be less std focused- when so.many people opening boosters are looking for Edh or casual, Standard becomes less important, especially as Modern/Legacy product commands premium prices to boot. No one is paying MH2 collector prices for Standard.

The banathon did not help at all from Pioneer's pov. That said Std interest has waned for years now and with so many sets it will wane further in paper. With Arena being huge, I can see a situation where online play is Arena, for Std and historic. That has symmetry- shiny Arena for digital formats, whilst paper has the others.


Frankly I never felt there was much wrong with the combo decks in pioneer Never played them myself,but combo defines formats- as do answers to them. If there were issues it was with the lack of answers.
I would be surprised if they axed Pioneer or let it wither.

[motleyslayer]

I agree with comp level magic being so far behind commander now but that's probably a topic we could dedicate another whole thread to.

I feel like standard in paper died when arena became a thing, that's probably just the easiest way to play standard.

is there any merit to unbanning anything in pioneer and if so what would be fine to be unbanned?