[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Pioneer will eventually come to Arena.

Relevant text:
"This is a long-term commitment that will eventually lead to additional format support beyond Standard and Historic. Pioneer is one of the formats that we're working towards, but it'll be a longer journey before we can talk specifics. As we head towards that goal, we'll be focusing on delivering the best play experiences that these iconic card sets can offer."

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-11-13

I don't have experience with Arena, so I don't know how to react to this other than "future increased commitment to Pioneer is probably good for Pioneer".

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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

Thats amazing news honestly.
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Post by Mapccu » 4 years ago

T3feri may be weak to aggro, but he's great against everything else. That frees up 56 slots in a deck.

Extremes aside, t3feri may not be problematic now but he will be. He ages very well, much better than most haste threats that can answer him. Problem with him is stuff like vraska's contempt just looks silly against the card. It's horribly overpriced sorcery speed 4 cmc removal for what some decks can spit out t2.

I'd be skeptical of his longevity. Especially since cards like veil are under inspection (punishing to a broad subset of cards).

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Post by Simto » 4 years ago

Awesome it's coming to Arena, but it's going to be a %$#% billion years before it's out lol

Also, my LGS is hosting Pionner FNMs now, but on Wednesdays where I can't go.. NOOOOOOOOOOO :( :( :(

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Post by Mapccu » 4 years ago

Really hope they introduce a catch up mechanic for building decks in pioneer when it rolls out in arena. There is going to be a steep requirement to build certain decks if people are getting into arena late. Especially if we get several more sets in between then the mana bases alone can eat through rare wild cards before people even build out different deck lists.

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Post by robertleva » 4 years ago

Coming to Arena...will my MTGO cards transfer over?? Cant they just make Arena the GUI for MTGO for pete's sake!!

RE: T3Feri He hates on counterspell strats most hard, but he is in the pure control colors UW. Veil was a green counterspell++. It was a poor card design outside of some kind of Time Spiral type set. Summary: T3feri is keeping some annoying decks in check while not doing all that much vs fast resilient beater type strategies. Honestly this seems fine to me.
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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

robertleva wrote:
4 years ago
Coming to Arena...will my MTGO cards transfer over?? Cant they just make Arena the GUI for MTGO for pete's sake!!

RE: T3Feri He hates on counterspell strats most hard, but he is in the pure control colors UW. Veil was a green counterspell++. It was a poor card design outside of some kind of Time Spiral type set. Summary: T3feri is keeping some annoying decks in check while not doing all that much vs fast resilient beater type strategies. Honestly this seems fine to me.
It's just sooo cheap for what it does. Put it at 4cmc, and I hate it a lot less.
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Post by drmarkb » 4 years ago

idSurge wrote:
4 years ago
drmarkb wrote:
4 years ago
Counterspell cards, which Veil really is in disguise, are interactive by definition. You can't even cast most counterspells profitably if your opponent doesn't do anything
Veil's problem is all the text it has ON TOP of draw a card when facing the colours of stack interaction, is what makes it such a flawed design, while also being in the colour of proactivity itself.

It pushes the game toward "I do my thing and now you cant even interact with it."

Counter a Discard, and draw.
Counter a Counter, and draw.
Counter a Removal, and potentially draw.
Counter a Bounce, and draw.
Counter interaction with the GY, and potentially draw.

Its nuts, and in no way should be legal in anything but Standard at most, because at least in Standard, it rotates and goes away in time.

Anyway, I do believe we will have to see some more hits against Green, OuaT is very bad design with the London Mulligan, and T3feri remains something that should not exist at that low of a CMC.

Oko, I dont know. Its a Standard problem, but is it going to push out everything in other formats too?
The number of people perturbed by the card in Legacy is zero, of that I can assure you.
Veil is pushed, sure, but 'I counter your interaction with my interaction' is good for the game, much better than lots of shroud or hexproof. If you reprinted Perish Pioneer's green issue would ve solved in seconds.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

If you reprinted Perish Pioneer's green issue would ve solved in seconds.
hoho, that card is my emergency button against combo elves in legacy. :P

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Here in pioneer, I hope they get rid of T3feri.
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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
4 years ago
idSurge wrote:
4 years ago
drmarkb wrote:
4 years ago
Counterspell cards, which Veil really is in disguise, are interactive by definition. You can't even cast most counterspells profitably if your opponent doesn't do anything
Veil's problem is all the text it has ON TOP of draw a card when facing the colours of stack interaction, is what makes it such a flawed design, while also being in the colour of proactivity itself.

It pushes the game toward "I do my thing and now you cant even interact with it."

Counter a Discard, and draw.
Counter a Counter, and draw.
Counter a Removal, and potentially draw.
Counter a Bounce, and draw.
Counter interaction with the GY, and potentially draw.

Its nuts, and in no way should be legal in anything but Standard at most, because at least in Standard, it rotates and goes away in time.

Anyway, I do believe we will have to see some more hits against Green, OuaT is very bad design with the London Mulligan, and T3feri remains something that should not exist at that low of a CMC.

Oko, I dont know. Its a Standard problem, but is it going to push out everything in other formats too?
The number of people perturbed by the card in Legacy is zero, of that I can assure you.
Veil is pushed, sure, but 'I counter your interaction with my interaction' is good for the game, much better than lots of shroud or hexproof. If you reprinted Perish Pioneer's green issue would ve solved in seconds.
Legacy has its own way to answer. Other formats do not have the luxury of multiple 'free' counters. Our Counters/Removal cost 2+, and are then answered by a 1 mana cryptic. It's absurd, and really should have never been printed.

It agree, interaction answered by interaction is desired, but seriously print it in Blue and everyone would lose it as the greatest counter of all time.
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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 4 years ago

The biggest problem with Veil is that it costs 1 Mana. If it costed 2 like the rest of it's cycle, we wouldn't be banning a sideboard card.

The fact that it's the only one of the cycle to replace itself is another problem, but that wouldn't be nearly as bad if they had costed it at 2 like it's brethren.

Anyway, one Mana Cyptic Commands aside, do they really think that banning Veil is enough? The issue is the pushed nature of these Green cards as a whole, and banning a sideboard card is not going to change that fundamental issue, no matter how hard they pushed that sideboard card.

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Post by robertleva » 4 years ago

Magus has point, Veil may not be enough. Green is very strong and has lots of cards that could potentially become problematic given the limited removal options of Pioneer.
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Nah, there's almost no way Veil is enough. Once Upon a Time is getting banned too once they're ok with banning a card in the current set. It's just too good of a cantrip compared to everything else in this format.
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
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urIzzet Phoenixur
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uwAzorius Controluw

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Post by ktkenshinx » 4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote:
4 years ago
Nah, there's almost no way Veil is enough. Once Upon a Time is getting banned too once they're ok with banning a card in the current set. It's just too good of a cantrip compared to everything else in this format.
Agreed that OUT is probably a goner in Pioneer. Wizards has made it extremely clear that contemporary Magic formats cannot have cantripping effects that are too strong. They don't like the consistency and repetitive play patterns. I have mixed feelings about this approach because strong cantrips have pros/cons, but if the cantrips are finding proactive threats and not reactive answers, I'm totally fine with those cantrips going away. Formats do need to support consistent answers to varied threats. Cantrips like Opt support this. Formats don't need proactive decks always assembling the perfect T1-T4 openers that interactive decks must answer. Cantrips like OUT support this sort of play line, which jeopardizes format health.
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

Once Upon a Time does look too strong. Turn one free ancient stirrings effect in any deck that has green, provided Once Upon a Time is in the opening hand.
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Post by robertleva » 4 years ago

I ne'er liked how green started getting all the blue cantrip type spells in the first place. I'm also on the Ban OUT bandwagon.
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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 4 years ago

robertleva wrote:
4 years ago
I ne'er liked how green started getting all the blue cantrip type spells in the first place. I'm also on the Ban OUT bandwagon.
I don't look at it as a bandwagon thing. I look at it as it digging 5 cards deep to find either a threat or land, but not an answer, all for zero mana. The fact that it inherently benefits proactive strategies over reactive ones, and specifically in Green where the best threats already congregate just makes it worse.

Honestly, thank the almighty robot policeman they didn't make it get 'Walkers too, because if they had we would be in even deeper. It's still probably the best consistency tool in the format, which is a shame, because Blue doesn't have anything even close.

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Post by drmarkb » 4 years ago

Ouat is too strong, and gives consistency in formats that are consistently denied consistency. In Legacy it is fine, but Modern onwards is not supposed to have that consistency, especially with no deck build cost.
For me in order to get a balanced game, we have to be prepared to be upset the sulk puss who does not like it when he(and it normally is a he) casts their creature and it does not resolve or it gets killed before they get to use it. Wotc still seem to have not learned that if Jonny big monster is happy- he can cast his big monster and nothing causes him to reevaluate life choices, then every other player with half a brain will be casting it too, if it is the best thing in the format. Lo and behold, Jonny big monster's new fave card is every other sod's nightmare as there follows three months of being smashed by an emrakul t4 every sodding game.
This is how bans happen most of the time- the hoser is rubbish, can't be drawn or turns up a year too late like Kataki did after rav block. The formats need answers and they are none too clever at making good answer cards, and for most of pioneer's pool the answers are way behind the threats, which is exacerbated if you start dishing out consistency to the threat decks.

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Post by robertleva » 4 years ago

Field and OUT are obnoxious and lead to unfun, one sided play patterns. Dump em both. Smugglers copter in the other hand Im not so sure about, At the end of the day it's a dude that swings at you, Pioneer should have answers for it.
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Post by Simto » 4 years ago

I wonder how safe Smuggler's Copter is to buy for Pioneer... I mean it dies to Fatal Push and other stuff people have access to, but yeah... I want it for my B/G Steel Leaf Stompy deck and B/G Saproling deck, but it'll probably get banned. It's definitely in Sauron's gaze.

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

the mono black aggro deck seems to be putting up great numbers. recursive threats and copter seem really good

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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Are we assuming that the Pioneer bans come with the rest of the bans or will we see them later in the day like the other Pioneer announcements have been?

Mono Black Aggro does seem well positioned. They also have removal tools available to them if the need ever comes up.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 4 years ago

Its pretty clear OUaT needs to go. Field is next because they learned their lesson with Standard and aren't going to wait to give it a second chance or time for the format to adept because Standard learned us that you can't. Last one is Copter. Its homogeneous in agrobuilds and therefore will be banned.

Throne of Eldraine is overpushed and its cards are dominating both Standard and Pioneer an will so for the next years.

Oko
Questing Beast
Brazen Borrower
OUaT
Fabled Passage
The Royal Scions
The Great Henge
Murderous Rider
Gilded Goose
Emry
5 Castles
Fires of Invention
Wicked Wolf
Charming Prince
Lovestruck Beast
Drown in the Loch
Into the Story
Yorvo
Rankle, Master of Pranks
Feaburrow Elder
Stonecoil Serpent
Wildborn Preserver
Wishclaw Talisman
Mystical Dispute
Witch's Vengeance
Doom Foretold
Deafening Silence
Witching Well
Bonecrusher Giant
... I am sure I am even forgetting some

The amount of power put into this set equivalents 2 years of releases.

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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

Feels like Copter is playable everywhere at no disadvantage and is pushing a top deck?

I saw a few instances where it was Copter blocks Copter as the only flying on the field. Is this similar enough to Jace vs Jace in older rules?

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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
Once Upon a Time does look too strong. Turn one free ancient stirrings effect in any deck that has green, provided Once Upon a Time is in the opening hand.
Which it always will be if needed because.........London Mulligan.
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