[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

if there are enough etb nonland permanents in the pioneer deck, Yorion is worth a try.

we tested it for awhile in the modern thread at mtgs, results were good.

now, that companions are nerfed, he is weakened but could still provide value mid-late game.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

I am a serious UW player and I just don't get the attraction to Yorien. We don't have anything we want to bounce, and I don't even really want to have to cast Yorien. He at least made sense before the companions nerf because you get a free finisher. After the nerf he makes no sense to me at all, people keep trying to jam him in Pioneer and I don't get it.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

What I said about testing Yorion in is the Azorius thread we had at mtgsalvation 75-77, you can see that we are also serious in testing him. We only stopped testing because corona came, and paper was stopped. But as I said it's modern we tested Yorion in. I'm unfamiliar with etb cards used in Pioneer, which is why I said if there's "enough etb nonland permanents", then he is worth a try. If etb nonland permanents are too few, then there's no reason to add the companion.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 years ago
What I said about testing Yorion in is the Azorius thread we had at mtgsalvation 75-77, you can see that we are also serious in testing him. We only stopped testing because corona came, and paper was stopped. But as I said it's modern we tested Yorion in. I'm unfamiliar with etb cards used in Pioneer, which is why I said if there's "enough etb nonland permanents", then he is worth a try. If etb nonland permanents are too few, then there's no reason to add the companion.
It's not just you, I didnt mean to imply that. I saw some lists of goldfish using Yorien and no recent lists without. I am going to go ahead and double down on it though. THis is a bad card after the nerf, it wasn't ever designed to be hard cast. I havevnt played modern in a while but I believe that will apply there as well.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

is there a stock list for competitive uw in pioneer? If the list has not been solved, people of course would be testing to find what's good.

Yorion was hot stuff a little while ago competing with Lurrus, recently cooled down by the obligatory companion nerf. If people are winning with their Yorion lists post nerf, they will keep using him. If not, then they will eventually stop.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 years ago
is there a stock list for competitive uw in pioneer? If the list has not been "solved", people of course would be testing to find what's good.

Yorion is was hot stuff a little while ago competing with Lurrus, recently cooled down by the obligatory companion nerf. If people are winning with their Yorion lists post nerf, they will keep using him. If not, then they will eventually stop.
As someone on MTG once badgered me when I was trying to get 8Rack exposure "you can 5-0 with a ham sandwich". Hyperbole of course but his point stuck with me.

Pioneer is in no way solved. There is a treasure trove of hidden gem cards that are great in this format but overlooked due to their age. Silkwrap is an excellent example. No one uses this Silkwrap, but the newer Baffling End sees play even though it only hits tapped critters. I know it has flash, but that is actually there to distract you from how narrow it is. Baffling end is essentially useless against mana dorks which is one of the primary targets for my Silkwraps since they are so common.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 years ago
is there a stock list for competitive uw in pioneer? If the list has not been solved, people of course would be testing to find what's good.

Yorion was hot stuff a little while ago competing with Lurrus, recently cooled down by the obligatory companion nerf. If people are winning with their Yorion lists post nerf, they will keep using him. If not, then they will eventually stop.
there was a thread that @robertleva had started in the decklists section of pioneer a while ago, they had a few cool looking lists in that thread. The list I posted in that thread was pretty stock for what I was finding on mtg goldfish at the time. But again I think one of the main things that prevented people from "solving" the format was the fact that the pandemic closed down paper play and there hasn't been anything for pioneer except for maybe a few challenges and leagues on mtgo. So I don't know how much "useful" information we've gotten on the format, I don't really like using leagues as reliable info. I guess that leaves the challenges, but I don't know if you'd use that info reliably

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

I had a feeling Mono White was well positioned. It feels very powerful because you have a solid beatdown plan supported by white removal, good walkers and the oops I just won combo with ballista.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I'm not sure how I feel about Ballista, tbh. It's the easiest combo to break, requiring something as simple as a Shock to totally subvert. Do people feel this deck is too aggressive to also hold a combo in it? I just don't have a ton of experience with/against the list.

Edit: I didn't realize Rob was on the next page giving some answer to my question already, lol. Maybe I'll look into it more.

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

the Heliod/Ballista combo is actually trickier than it appears because even though it is easy to answer if he just goes for it as soon as possible, the more mana the heliod player accumulates the more likely it becomes he can win with your removal on the stack

generally thinking magic in terms of answers is the wrong approach tbh... the goal is to win not to postpone losing, all decks need a wincon and if a wincon is better than another answers are not really going to change it...

for example is there ANY kind of answer that would suddenly make inverter become worse than UBx control? there isn't. winning with clunky 5 and 6 drops is never going to compete with the efficiency of Inverter->Oracle, besides who says that a)those bombs cannot be answered themselves, b)you can't play those answers on Inverter itself?

same goes with Heliod, as long as there's no real cost to running it you will, even if the opponent does kill ballista so what? it's a 1 for 1 and he's probably getting attack by your other creatures on the very turn he answered it, you don't lose anything, his reward is not dying immediately

no to mention that the 'much needed' answers already seem to be finding themselves in Inverter:

Eliminate was a fantastic addition to help Inverter answer Gideon (a key card in white decks in the MU)

TS is the most powerful card in the format and is pivotal in Inverter's success: it 'answers' your opponents answers and gets 'recycled' with Inverter ensuring the kill the turn he decides to go off

the only way formats get better is through bans and more considerate prints, just ban mistakes and print better next time, nothing else works

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

There are in fact multiple ways to play the game; I think referencing the now ancient article "Who's the Beatdown" is relevant here. It is common practice to recognize that you are "the control" in the matchup- sometimes so granularly that it depends on play/draw. In that sense, playing not to lose is a very common and very important practice. Inverter is almost always the control, it literally plays not to lose until it can flip it's library over. Heliod combo does literally the opposite, that deck uses offense as a distraction until it can do the thing if it needs to.

There is merit in playing not to lose.

The issue we often see is that answers are so out paced by questions that there is no point in trying to answer things. In the case of Inverter, we can see that combo has validated answers by removing the slow end game where you need to keep control while you actually win the game.

I do agree with what you're saying about combo in general though. New toys in those colors can slot directly in as long as they don't interfere with the combo itself. Inverter more than Heliod needs to go, in my opinion; like I was saying before, Shock is still pretty good at delaying or preventing the combo and I use Shock as my example because it's the lowest form of prevention I can think of. Return to Nature is a huge step up, Act of Cruelty is a huge step up, Disenchant, Fragmentize, Unsummon, etc. There are many options that prevent or delay Heliod combo in multiple colors. Preventing Inverter is waaay harder and I don't think I need to innumerate why, but this is why I would rather see Inverter go before I see Heliod go (the decks).

I'm totally with you on bans and more considerate printings. It's why I want to see the return of the regular ban announcements, instead of weekly it should be biweekly (every 2 weeks). It wouldn't mandate something be banned but at least we'd get to see WotC justify things even if it's "No Change". I think when WotC offered to remove scheduled B&R announcements the player base thought we'd get a more agile and reactive ban policy, instead it seems like we've gotten almost complete radio silence with nearly zero signaling on how they view things. Are we teetering on a ban? Do they want Pioneer to look like this? Are they waiting on some things to be printed to make decisions?

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Is anyone going to be surprised to see Inverter take a hit on Monday? Maybe not be erased completely, but something will happen to the deck. The announcement of an announcement in case anyone missed it.

I think the real speculation here is whether or not more than one thing gets banned. Will they just hit Inverter or will they take from Lotus Breach as well?

Honestly, I hope they take from both those decks for reasons I've mentioned previously but justifying both in that players will just migrate to the next strongest combo. I don't think people will migrate to Heliod/Ballista because the combo is significantly more fragile and the deck in general easier to meta game against.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

I fully expect enough pieces of dimir inverter to get axed so that the deck is gone. I would say that leaves Mono White devotion and breach as the best known of the decks to beat left over. Agree?

I saw an interesting deck yesterday. It used Feather, the Redeemed along side cards like Essence Capture and Reckless Rage to clear the board and keep it clear. T3feri and Boros reckoner were in there. Worked nice.

Another weird but seemingly strong combo deck where he somehow free cast a blue spell that let him draw his whole deck. Cant remember details but it was annoying.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

my prediction is either Thassa's Oracle or Inverter of Truth banned to weaken/get rid of inverter. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Underworld Breach gets banned.

Oracle is what I hope gets banned because then it leaves two 4 mana cards left to try and combo off with in inverter decks

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
my prediction is either Thassa's Oracle or Inverter of Truth banned to weaken/get rid of inverter. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Underworld Breach gets banned.

Oracle is what I hope gets banned because then it leaves two 4 mana cards left to try and combo off with in inverter decks
If they ban TO the deck probably would just die anyways. I have never seen the deck win with one of the other win conditions, they are much too easy to disrupt.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
my prediction is either Thassa's Oracle or Inverter of Truth banned to weaken/get rid of inverter. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Underworld Breach gets banned.

Oracle is what I hope gets banned because then it leaves two 4 mana cards left to try and combo off with in inverter decks
If they ban TO the deck probably would just die anyways. I have never seen the deck win with one of the other win conditions, they are much too easy to disrupt.
I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct in saying that. Having to cast a 4 mana creature and then a 4 mana walker to win seems quite clunky.

I can probably see TO being banned if that means opening up the format more

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I still have a hard time with TO potentially being banned. Inverter itself was unusable prior to TO's printing, the card was virtually forgotten up to that point. TO itself is useful for anti-mill strategies (you literally just win the game), it's a great EtB effect and early 1/3 for control decks (ignoring the win clause) and also encourages more permanents in Blue lists to get more value.

On the other hand, I totally want to build an Inverter deck that isn't trying to self mill. I want to go for something that goes hard early, stacks the yard with used spells, then flips the library to ensure it always draws gas for 4-5 turns to pressure the game to end.

Personally, I'd prefer TO not be banned. I like the card better, I'm totally biased in making that statement because I like the interplay with TO and actual Thassa. Right now, my sig is the standard list I'm playing on arena (I broke down) but I have a Sultai Pioneer list that functions similarly.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

For those who haven't seen the B&R yet. Oath of Nissa is unbanned.
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Since the launch of Pioneer late last year, we've seen significant changes in the metagame. Early in Pioneer's launch window, various green ramp decks were among the most popular and successful archetypes. In order to reduce the consistency of these decks, Oath of Nissa was added to the banned list early in the progression of Pioneer.

Since that time, other cards used by green ramp decks have been banned, including Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer and Oko, Thief of Crowns. In addition, the release of new sets has added power to other archetypes and generally expanded possibilities for deckbuilding. The metagame is now in a place where we feel that unbanning Oath of Nissa is a reasonable step to take as far as adding some power back to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx ramp decks and other archetypes that revolve around key creatures, lands, or planeswalkers.

We are otherwise generally happy with the shape of the metagame in Pioneer, with the most played decks each having strengths and weaknesses against each other. We are keeping an eye on the populations of combo decks in the environment, although the perception that combo decks have dominant win rates isn't backed up Magic Online play data. We are also seeing a variety of lesser-played decks having success, which indicates that the metagame may continue to shift.
Honestly, it feels like a non-B&R to me. With no events firing online and obviously nothing in paper, the data they are referencing feels pretty hollow. I'm glad they're at least "watching" combo decks. Seems they could do more.

The unban just feels meh though, I agree it probably doesn't deserve to be on the list anymore.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Feels like a cowardly non-ban on some piece of inverter but meh. Inverter is beatable by mono white and fast decks that carry a tiny bit of disruption. It's just that inverter is super obnoxious and unfun to lose to. In the past these decks eventually get banned it's only a question of how much pain they want to inflict on us decent folk before they ban it.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I'm still kind of confused by the only decision in pioneer was to unban Oath of Nissa. The only thing I can see is that they want to try and encourage people to try new decks and increase diversity. This just feels super forced.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

After reading some of the reddit posts responding to the B&R, I pretty well agree. It's like they forgot to add some cards to the banning half of the announcement.

Also, there is a bunch of "the format is dead", I'm not optimistic but I do think they're going a bit far. Not firing a single event in the last week is a big deal though and you'd think that would be what WotC (internally) zeroed in on as justification for major action.

One of the more interesting takes I had read was that Inverter is acting like KCI was. A ton of people are playing it poorly and a few players are able to mop the competition with it. I'm not sure if that holds or not, but it's an interesting take. Another take is that Inverter (the card) is in Double Masters. While it's not some heavy hitting card for pack value, banning it then spoiling it would generate a ton of negativity; if this is the case, I assume we can sit around with this in Pioneer for another 6 months minimum.

Maybe I'm just going to be a draft player for awhile... Awesome.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Greeksis wrote:
3 years ago
As I said on other places, I think Inverter creates some great games, some very deep play patterns and decisions trees. That said, if the deck's win rate is still fine, I think it's a net positive for the format. Since Wizards acknowledged that the power level of the format has gone up, this unban is welcomed.
I think this was a good announcement, but I like them having combo in a short leash in the format.
Again, the problem with inverter isn't the power level or win rate, it's how obnoxious it is to win by running yourself out of cards. It just feels %$#% to be playing a game that rewards that type of strat. So even though it's perfectly "fair" it still needs to go for format health. Pioneer events not firing on MTGO should be warning signs that people don't like it.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Greeksis wrote:
3 years ago
Again, the problem with t5feri yorion control isn't the power level or win rate, it's how obnoxious it is to win by the opponent trying to exile your lands with its emblem. It just feels %$#% to be playing a game that rewards that type of strat. So even though it's perfectly "fair" it still needs to go for format health.

I am making the same statement asking for a t5feri (or a t3feri) ban, because I think losing to control is obnoxious. Fun is subjective. Don't fall for it.
I mean, you are right. BUT when a lot of people AGREE that a certain strat is obnoxious then people stop playing, as we are seeing now.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
I mean, you are right. BUT when a lot of people AGREE that a certain strat is obnoxious then people stop playing, as we are seeing now.
There will always be those that love and those that hate every state of every format. Greeksis is just one of the ones who likes things right now. I think we can pretty well see who sits where in the current discussion.

Let's try to find common ground? (Directed at the thread in general.)
Like or dislike the state of things, right now events aren't even firing on MTGO for Pioneer. Can we agree that this is a horrible sign for the format?
______

As an additional topic. I'm super confused about why Pioneer Masters is coming to Arena when it was primarily a paper format that currently only lives on MTGO. It's sorta baffling to me. If this is their push to bring Pioneer to Arena then they might want to strongly consider what they put in this masters set. Some key exclusions/inclusions could wildly alter how the format plays until they can get 100% of the cards loaded in.

There seems to be some assumption that PM1 (assuming the nomenclature) will be Historic legal as well. Are they going to push Historic into becoming Pioneer and merge the formats? That almost makes no sense because of the additional cards already in Historic... unless the plan is to reprint them.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

The "article" you quote here is just a reddit post. I read it as well.

Thankfully, I agree with many of the points in the bullet list. I do want to point out #2 though where they directly say that they "wouldn't be against banning the most broken cards, like small teferi, thassas oracle, or cards like dig through time". Depending on where you register "wouldn't be against" makes a huge difference in how contradictory you feel their first and second bullet are (directly referencing the "I think pioneer meta is kinda good" which is a wobbly statement in it's own right). Based on how you, @Greeksis, have navigated things in this thread I'll assume that you don't think those are contradictory and that "wouldn't be against" banning the primary win condition of the top two most played decks in Pioneer is just totally kosher with liking the meta in bullet one. The poster goes on to say "Who knows maybe I'm wrong and there are more cards that should be banned" making no reference to any other cards. I assume that this poster's stance is a bit wobbly on banning the three cards mentioned.

Point is that even the not article that you posted that tells people they should play the meta can't even take a hard stance on how those cards should not be banned.

And finally, I'll address you directly, @Greeksis. Like or dislike the state of things, right now events aren't even firing on MTGO for Pioneer. Can we agree that this is a horrible sign for the format? Point of the question being two fold; if you agree that it's bad for the format to be so empty then we should change things, and if events were firing before and now they're not clearly people were playing and got sick of it. So telling people "go play the format" falls on dead ears because we were!
The other bullets:
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1? Apart from the wobbly meta statement, I've also been an advocate for responsible removal for a long time. Silver bullets I'm less fond of because it creates a "did I draw my hate" meta.
3? Great, sure. Honestly, I barely know what this means. Are they purchasable packs? Can we do PM1 drafts (I'm keeping the nomenclature)?
4? YES PLEASE. I'm almost always on 3 colors. I have some thoughts on what that should mean, but it's probably heavier than I want to dig into right now.
5? I have been an advocate for a B&R every 2 weeks for quite awhile on reddit. The loss of communication is huge.
6? I think players in general want this.
7? Needs time. I don't think anyone is against this.

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