[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

I see less inverter than I thought I would. Yes it's beatable but it eliminates a lot of the "just fair" decks from having a chance. THAT'S the real problem in my estimation. Pioneers main draw is that it's a place where fair decks have a fair chance, nothing more.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
I see less inverter than I thought I would. Yes it's beatable but it eliminates a lot of the "just fair" decks from having a chance. THAT'S the real problem in my estimation. Pioneers main draw is that it's a place where fair decks have a fair chance, nothing more.
do you have any guesses why? I haven't paid much attention past few days but I guess people could be more inclined to brew now or try and beat the deck

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
I see less inverter than I thought I would. Yes it's beatable but it eliminates a lot of the "just fair" decks from having a chance. THAT'S the real problem in my estimation. Pioneers main draw is that it's a place where fair decks have a fair chance, nothing more.
do you have any guesses why? I haven't paid much attention past few days but I guess people could be more inclined to brew now or try and beat the deck
I think mono white has a fair match up against Inverter and is much more fun to play and lose to than Inverter. Mono White has a really solid beat down plan that often doesn't even need the combo.

Inverter falls to fast decks with some disruption. GR ramp looks strong right now, possibly mono green devotion as well since it can run Oath of Nissa again. Klothys is good right now too.

Possibly one reason we are seeing people start to fight it is because it survived the ban. There's no point in assembling a weapon to fight a deck that is getting banned so people might have just been waiting to see what happened.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I have to admit, there has been some meta shifting. I don't think I would make any calls on things right now, but it's nice to see the numbers change at least. Reddit still seems to be dunking on people claiming things are improving.

Hopefully we see things settle in a more evenly distributed way, my fear is that things will settle into combo and anti-combo. Probably start reevaluating the meta in late August or something, just let things digest for now.

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

it's a strange situation the format is in: everyone seemed to think that Inverter is so banned when the anouncement came, wotc instead unbaned something (the ridiculous mantra 'no bans unbans instead/make the banlist as short as possible' is something the players have been parroting for ages in modern) yet the people are displeased that this time 'Twin' didn't get banned

in fact wotc anounced that none of the combo decks have problematic win rates and ironically enough everyone suddenly remember that they're actually beating inverter with a variety of (mostly aggro) decks

and now some are actually complaining about mono black aggro! and 'lack of answers' which is a highly misinformed opionion especially when TS is far and away the most powerful card in the format and it's in fact so powerful that it can premtively answer enemy answers and enforce proactive gameplans, like mono black beatdown or inverter combo... in pioneer the best deck has always been the best proactive TS shell (proactive-sorry Esper you're good but not THAT good), so black decks probably need some sort of 'nerf' in their proactive capabilities as a 'TS tax', having such a powerful answer and a solid proactive plan is troublesome and none actually wants TS banned...

still the question remains: if Inverter is unremarkable in terms of winrate (we have 2 reports one at 49% and another 'not problematic' why does it enjoy such a high meta share? i would guess that because it's a particularly unique, interesting and skill intensive deck but if the people insist on playing it because they like it why do they also complain about it?...

generally if bans are to happen they probably need to do alot of actual thinking and silly excel sheets with winrates and meta shares are not going to do the trick, if it was that simple we could have just automated the bans and be done with...

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Arkmer wrote:
3 years ago
I have to admit, there has been some meta shifting. I don't think I would make any calls on things right now, but it's nice to see the numbers change at least. Reddit still seems to be dunking on people claiming things are improving.

Hopefully we see things settle in a more evenly distributed way, my fear is that things will settle into combo and anti-combo. Probably start reevaluating the meta in late August or something, just let things digest for now.
I guess Inverter was just the low-hanging fruit that everyone wanted to be banned. It may not have the highest win rate but what they overlook is how it crowds out the fair decks that people want to play. Pioneer is the place to play fair decks and that needs to remain its format identity.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
what they overlook is how it crowds out the fair decks that people want to play. Pioneer is the place to play fair decks and that needs to remain its format identity.
This is why I still have reservations about Inverter and Lotus Breach existing. My issue is mostly with Inverter because Breach can be fought by all colors with Damping Sphere at a minimum, but Inverter, you're absolutely right, limits fair decks in non-Blue and/or Black colors. It's fairly obvious that Red and Green are worthless in stopping the two EtB triggers. White has some hate bears but they're trying to stay in play against a deck built to remove them. Basically, the Naya colors are worthless against Inverter unless they want to race or splash.

I'm sort of thinking aloud in this post, so please excuse some of my half thoughts and uncertainty- especially the following paragraph.

So that leaves us with the idea that you can race, and you can interact! Doesn't that mean things are healthy? I sorta get stuck here, because it sounds completely plausible that this is where we want to be; decks that race and decks that interact... Right? Well, I'm less certain about it and I don't feel like I have the words yet to really paint a good picture of it.

I think, for now, we need to go back into waiting for things to change and shift. If MBA is going to retake it's position at the top of the pile then we need to see what comes to fight it- if anything.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Arkmer wrote:
3 years ago
robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
what they overlook is how it crowds out the fair decks that people want to play. Pioneer is the place to play fair decks and that needs to remain its format identity.
This is why I still have reservations about Inverter and Lotus Breach existing. My issue is mostly with Inverter because Breach can be fought by all colors with Damping Sphere at a minimum, but Inverter, you're absolutely right, limits fair decks in non-Blue and/or Black colors. It's fairly obvious that Red and Green are worthless in stopping the two EtB triggers. White has some hate bears but they're trying to stay in play against a deck built to remove them. Basically, the Naya colors are worthless against Inverter unless they want to race or splash.

I'm sort of thinking aloud in this post, so please excuse some of my half thoughts and uncertainty- especially the following paragraph.

So that leaves us with the idea that you can race, and you can interact! Doesn't that mean things are healthy? I sorta get stuck here, because it sounds completely plausible that this is where we want to be; decks that race and decks that interact... Right? Well, I'm less certain about it and I don't feel like I have the words yet to really paint a good picture of it.

I think, for now, we need to go back into waiting for things to change and shift. If MBA is going to retake it's position at the top of the pile then we need to see what comes to fight it- if anything.
It just annoying that we have access to a deck like INverter in the format of Pioneer. No, it's not oppressing like Hogaak, but it does limit design space in an otherwise wide open format. I would think it would be in WOTC best interests to create a space that is as open to fair strats as possible.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

To add to the pile, @Greeksis, I have this paragraph for you:
"This trend, in combination with community feedback, has prompted us to take a look at the role of combo decks in the Pioneer metagame. While it can be a good thing for metagame diversity to have an archetype that plays differently from many other strategies, we are seeing some negative effects in terms of repetitive game play, recursive play patterns and lock states. This puts pressure on other decks to be able to deal with such game states or else race the combo decks, and generally restricts viable deckbuilding space." - July 13, 2020 B&R

Changed only are the words Tron to Combo and Pauper to Pioneer. This paragraph could have been copy and pasted with those changes and we'd never have bat an eye at it. Addressing other parts of the Pauper statement, they don't use win rates, they use meta share, and they talk about community feedback influencing their decision. Completely contrary to all the things we saw in Pioneer over the last month pre B&R.

I think we have some consensus about Inverter though. Nice to see, honestly. Something should be done about Inverter if it survives the meta shift in a significant way simply for damaging diversity. What should be done is likely the next hill we'll climb. I agree that it would be nice to keep DTT, formats where that card is legal are slim. Unfortunately, I'm less certain that preserving the Inverter + Oracle combo is the right move. This may be a case of trying to save Hogaak and we take a misban only to deal with the issue another few months. However, if those three cards are off the discussion table for this currently hypothetical ban, what would you propose? Taking a look over the common Inverter lists literally nothing jumps out at me because it's all 1 for 1 tempo/control and Jace- And please don't recommend banning that Jace, lol.

My vote is for Inverter of Truth to eat the ban.
The card was nothing before Thassa's Oracle. Jace existed but it didn't matter. Oracle has unique properties other than saying "win the game" on it. Personally, I enjoy the card in junction with Thassa herself, flickering for card selection has been super fun both in Pioneer and Standard. Not only that but it encourages Blue to have more permanents despite being classically a spells matter color. The 1/3 body is relevant for fighting aggro but playing it too early means not digging as deep. In hilarious cases, the card is a silver bullet vs mill decks; yes, I have a few win that way (in Standard). Point is that looking beyond "win the game" shows a card with many choices, advantages, and purpose.

Inverter is no less unique though, I think we can agree to that. I honestly didn't know the card existed until Thassa's Oracle, but I've thought a bit about how I would use it if Oracle were banned. In a control shell, I think the card remains. A flying 6/6 is something to be reckoned with, but that EtB is bizarre. To abuse it, you don't run looting, you avoid Fabled Passage, and try to keep your grave limited to just relevant high impact creatures and spells. The "low" cmc of 4 means that you can hold counters on turn 6+ to get it into play. Once there, if you've kept your yard clear of chaff, you have a library full of gas now and all your draws will be relevant. That's the best I can come up with for Inverter without Oracle and I don't really find that interesting.

I think banning DTT is the wrong move. It strays into a misban and a later ban to refix the not actually fixed. Additionally, I think this is one of the cards that gives Blue it's old identity. In recent years so many cards have had some kind of filtering on them or enough value to be considered having been equal to drawing a card. Meanwhile Blue has 4cmc draw 2 in spades and that's about it. Opt is nice? But DTT brings us selection and card advantage. This is the most blue thing Blue can do.

So since we're on the waiting portion of "hurry up and wait", what cards would we all propose be banned if Inverter does continue it's diversity limiting rein? I'll say again that my vote is for Inverter of Truth itself.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

@Akmer EDIT: I just typed out a long thing about keeping Inverter and I convinced myself it was the wrong move. Inverter is the piece that needs to go, if we keep it we are just asking for another annoying deck to come along and abuse it.

Breach I am less concerned about now, but that could change if all the jerky inverter players just switch over to that deck.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

@robertleva
I'd still be interested to hear your original thoughts on Inverter. The card is still unique and warrants more than I've given it. Overall, I'm glad you see it my way though, lol. The other cards are just too interesting to toss aside.

@Greeksis
Ha! I don't have any personal affection for that Jace, but suggesting it for a ban to nerf the other decks feels really misplaced. Breach is using Jace in the board, that could easily just be another Oracle that hides from Unmoored Ego effects through Fae of wishes. Realistically, that's barely a shift in Breach's play pattern. If you're looking to harm both decks, Jace is a waste of time.

Banning Jace to hit Inverter is weak as well. If anything Jace should be their other piece because you need to have him in play to win! Suddenly their combo costs 8, likely across two turns, and can be broken with removal. Banning Jace here can't be correct, so if the goal is one card that hurt both decks, I would side with you that Oracle is correct to ban. Which leads to-

Wanting Oracle and Breach is much more reasonable. It will kill both decks, but actually hits the targets intended. Whether killing both decks is a good thing or not would be an interesting thing to see. Personally, I'd be okay with it; it leaves Heliod combo to be the only combo.

About the meta: Ya, I see it. Like I said a few posts back though, I think to get a real feel for how the meta will play out we need to wait until late August. Forsythe jumping in after 2ish weeks is very premature, in my opinion. Things haven't played out yet; we literally went from 30+% Inverter and mass complaints to "should we ban Thoughtseize!?" (talking about reddit's knee jerk and your correct defense of the card) back to determining that Inverter has deeper problems than 30% meta share.

Point being that things are in flux, people are throwing things at the wall to see what sticks, I'm still on the wait until late August plan before I make any firm judgements of things. For now, the casual thoughts on Inverter remaining a problem are about as far as I'm willing to go.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

I have to believe you are correct about the ban situation. There's no indications of an Inverter ban coming any time soon so we best just get on board with having it be a pillar of the format. It's pretty beatable so maybe it will eventually fall out of popularity.

As far as the current meta goes, I am pleased with my Mono White and Mono Black lists. My UW list feels a bit clunky right now compared to the smooth beatdown into Heliod combo game plan of Mono White. I made go into a redesign phase on UW.

One thing I noticed for Mono White is the lack of 1 drop beaters that actually synergize with the overall plan. Thraben Inspector is an automatic 4 of, but what about after that? I initially tested Kytheon. He was ok, but I am not really playing enough weenies to flip it reliably. That said, I noticed immediately that the Indestructible was quite useful. Herald of Anafenza is like a lightning rod and it's a pretty neat token generator at 1cc.

I wish we had an active forum to discuss the actual pioneer decks. Since we currently don't I suggest we users just start using this thread to post lists for any and all pioneer decks. Abandon the sub forums, they are empty anyways.

That's my 2cp anyways.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

For example: I think you can break down Mono White into two categories: the fast aggro version and the aggro control type that uses Karn the Great creator. I would love to bounce ideas for both types off folks, but this forum just isnt active enough for that. If anyone can recommend a discord or something that might be a good place to post that type of stuff I would appreciate that too.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 3 years ago

Re: Forsythe's Tweet
I don't know why people are pointing to Forsythe's post as a promising sign of anything. Have you ever seen a WotC staff highlight a Challenge T8 as an example of a healthy metagame before? It seems extremely disingenuous. We all know from years of experience with MTGO that single Challenge T8s are virtually meaningless without broader context. We know T8s at any event level (GP, PT, etc.) can be misleading and non-representative, let alone from random weekend MTGO Challenges. I read between the lines on this Tweet that Forsythe is trying to defend their unpopular "No bans" B&R update for Pioneer and hoping the pendulum swings away from the Pioneer issues many are identifying. It is important for all Pioneer players to understand their format is secretly just as broken as basically every other format due to disastrous Wizards design/testing/balance decisions from 2018-2020. It might be less visible in a single Challenge T8, and it might be less visible in a format where many larger events weren't even firing for weeks, but the format is still broken. Once more players return to the format and higher-level, better-attended events start firing more consistently, this will become clearer. If nothing else, this will become inescapably clear once Pioneer enters Arena and grinders/average players start to iterate free-to-play reps on that platform. The true meta will emerge and it will be just as busted as the true meta for the other Arena formats (Historic, Standard). Forsythe's Tweet will likely age very poorly.

Re: place to discuss decks
I know there's a Developing deck subforum in Pioneer. Do we need another one too?
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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Greeksis wrote:
3 years ago
But the whole point was that oracle cant be wished via fae.
Wow, I totally forgot that Fae doesn't get creatures. That changes things a bit; shifts the weight of the argument more toward it being a weak Inverter nerf. I'm not sure how often Breach needs to reach into their board for Jace, tbh, but I would still consider that percentage of games as something to be taken into account (be it in favor of or against the suggested ban). Makes it a more interesting discussion, at least.

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

@ktkenshinx I honestly do not think Inverter is broken, it is just unhealthy for the format. It doesn't win a huge percentage of matches, but it provides a "hard floor" to the format in that Inverter is reliable enough that there isn't much point exploring other decks / strats along those lines, or ones that might be less reliable.

That's lame and unhealthy for a new format. I've said it before, Pioneer needs to remain the place for folks to play their fair decks and expect to have a fair chance. This is all many folks ever wanted out of MTG, in any format.
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Post by Simto » 3 years ago

What the %$#%, Walking Ballista is banned!?? That %$#% sucks!
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... nouncement

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

Inverter and Breach are also banned.

Plenty of powerful cards gone in one announcement.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

they practically banned the top decks right out of the format. I do't know how I feel. I probably should have seen it coming when I built inverter but this is intense

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Post by ktkenshinx » 3 years ago

Best possible update for Pioneer. This will breathe new life into the format and establish a clearer identity. Wizards must still address underlying design/testing/balance issues that have destroyed all of their formats from Vintage to Standard, but aggressive management decisions like this are a good start. This also shouldn't surprise anyone. We've known attendance was awful for months in both Challenges and Prelims, which means the win rates and prevalence numbers were meaningless. In this update, Wizards admitted they were wrong, explained why, and took appropriate action to correct their shortcomings.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I'm actually sort of interested to see what the format turns into with essentially all the best decks gone now. It kind of stings that I built Inverter after thinking it was safe but I kinda just had the staples without trying hard to get them

I might try some kind of GBx midrange, probably starting with earlier Sultai builds

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I didn't even know this was happening... Was there an announcement announcement that I missed?

Honestly though, I'm stunned. I think we all came to some conclusion that something had to be done to Inverter, but this is wild. I guess we can all agree that we're about to see a new meta. I suppose I'm glad they finally took a stance that resembles their initial ban decisions, I'm just surprised it came in such force.

I'm gonna read the whole thing now, lol.
While I like the Standard bans, Cauldron Familiar comes as a shock. They reference the amount of triggers the deck produces as an issue for digital play and I do not like them using that logic; sort of a signal for future things to look out for. Also? You can make waaaay more triggers with many many other things in Standard. The rest of the Standard talk seems fine to me; justifying an "early rotation" in light of the pandemic and uptick in digital play will likely improve the format for the short run. They acknowledge that T3feri is annoying- wish they would do that in more formats.

For Pioneer and potentially all formats, this quote seems pretty heavy, "Ultimately, how much fun players are having with the environment is the most important driving force behind B&R updates" and to follow it they came to the decision to ban FOUR cards. That's some weighty decision making. I know the Modern thread has had some heated discussion about the validity of the "fun" argument and this seems like a continued affirmation of WotC's willingness to use it. I agree that it's subjective and difficult to agree on but in this instance I believe WotC saw that the player base was coming to a solid agreement on the issue. I think the last part is very key as well, they saw the player base agreeing that things were unfun/bad/whatever you describe it as and it lead to what could be considered a nuclear option to ban essentially an archetype from the format (I know some combo still exists, they're just not meta decks).

I disagree that leaving Jace for Inverter would have been a problem but that disagreement could be persuaded. I'm glad they acknowledge Lotus Breach didn't need Oracle. I'm stunned they took Ballista, the one I was certain would not be an issue if the other two were removed. Kethis combo makes me laugh, lol, they stabbed it so fast compared to the others.

I'm curious what this means for combo in the future. WotC just had a dose of combo hate from the player base that could subdue a moose. I wonder if they'll be more aggressive with banning combos that show promise in the meta in the future. Literally killing 4 combo decks in one B&R is a huge signal. Had they began pruning back the combo first, we'd have a much different set of things to talk about, but instead of a slow and measured push to find a balance they took this massive step. The next time one crops up, I wonder what the turn around time for it's removal is (I'm taking a pretty definite stance in that statement), I wonder if the player base will hesitate to buy into it because of their actions today... Many questions can be derived from this B&R.

However, overall, I do want to say that while I can't possibly even guess where the meta will fall now- THANK YOU, WOTC!!! I look forward to the next ban after you break it all again in September. :crazy: :laugh:

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

As a full Heliod / Ballista player I am ecstatic about these bans!!

If they had left Ballista, MWD or posssibly UW would be the oppressive deck. Esp MWD in my opinion because the regular beatdown game plan is so good to begin with. I can't wait to get brewing, but I suspect Mono Black and UR prowess to be well positioned.

I think the reasons that they gave are the most important part. It shows they are actually listening to player feedback (and no MTGO Pioneer events firing) and are making moves based on common sense instead of blinding going off data.
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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

it's wonderfull that they used their senses instead of silly excel sheets that pretty much tells us nothing about the things that actually matter like gameplay and the overall format experience

yes all of the combo decks were individually fine by any known metric, they still needed to be banned? why? anyone who actually had a grasp of the format knows why

and things finally make sense again: Pioneer is back on track to becoming the first FAIR non-rotating format in mtg, is Uro going to be a tad too good? sure, but after all that %$#% that's been around in all formats i personally welcome it because Uro shells are above all fair and interactive decks that seek to play the long game

besides all formats need to have a purpose and a target audience, it makes no sense having multiple formats trying to do the exact same thing with different card pools... combo enthusiasts can turn to modern and legacy which with their 0 cmc counterspells are better suited at answering them, let's have at least one non-rotating format in which you can actually tap out even after turn 4

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Ouch. The post ban meta is diverse and it's kicking my ass. I need to go back to redesign phase on everything pretty much. I am very interested in RG energy, UWR prowess and MBD. What decks are you guys trying out / seeing online?
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