[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

Cyanu
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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

that Lurrus needs to be banned like in every other non-rotating format, that thing is just broken

for Yorion i just can't decide yet whether he's a powerful card that improves a number of slower and interactive strategies or a problem for the format, the rest of the companions are completely fine

something from Lotus Breach might have to get axed too, as this deck really does not belong in the format, it feels like a modern combo deck tossed in pioneer

other than those 3 the format is going to be great though, with lots of interesting decks Inverter, Sultai delirium, Niv to Light, maybe even the knew bant control (UW ft Uro), the lattest grinder version of UW heliod ballista, Jeskai Fires and a number of aggro decks (ensoul, mono red, mono black, spirits, scales etc) with a little bit of ramp seem to be making a pretty engaging and colorful meta

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

You're probably just going to find the same things in this thread as the Modern thread right now only with slightly different issues but very similar. Companion is too pervasive, removal is bad, linear speed and/or cheating mana is king, too much consistency (see companion). Pioneer has it's issues.

Honestly, the state of Magic as a whole has lead me to start writing a more focused set of thoughts about how I would try to shape a format if I were at the helm of the ship, but the first and obvious conclusion (for me, at least) is that the way WotC is doing it is far from how I would do it. I'm not sure I'll ever be brave enough to post it even if I finish my thoughts on it though.

My honest opinion is that their highest priority is to just sell packs. You can rail against it and call the game great in its current state and whatnot but they're a business; even when the game is legitimately in an awesome state they want to sell more packs. That's fine, there's a symbiotic relationship to it all, but they're not keeping up their end of that relationship and it's finally coming to a head in the player community.

Part of me is very glad I can't jam in paper right now, I might have quit entirely if I had to play in this. Honestly, the more I have played Magic in the past couple years, the more I realize I prefer lower power Magic. I'll tell a short story to sort of give an approximation.
Dumb story that I'm proud of.
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At my LGS, they decided to have free Standard with those promo packs that shops are given which is pretty cool. Unfortunately those nights were dead. No one showed up and no one wanted to get free prizes. So I started going and literally just collecting my free promo pack with one stipulation, I had to spread the word and encourage people to come. So I started pushing people to come, duh. For awhile it was just a half effort that let me brag about free stuff a bit but slowly an idea cooked up in my head to make it an actually appealing night. "T2 Standard" was what I started pushing.

I managed to get a decent crowd of 8-10 people to show up pretty consistently for nearly a year until covid. We just ingrained the mantra that you can't bring a T1 deck. We had a blast! There were all kinds of decks that made no sense or were just full of cards that were way more interesting than "Make Embercleave, hit you for 10, I win." I played UB Flicker with Thassa here at the end of it all trying to use Oracles and other EtB deck sift to find Etrata to win me the game. I managed to win a few with just Lazav as Etrata triggers. And let me tell you how confused people get when you Concoct into a creatureless yard and always pull gas.
You might be surprised to hear that this is possible in Pioneer but you'd never know from the way WotC prints cards, hides data, and refuses to ban actual problem cards. If you want a list of them, many of them are also listed in the Modern thread as problems.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I do hope things return to a time when eternal formats were more stable.

I'd agree that Pioneer is likely easier to fix than Modern is but we don't actually even know what Pioneer is. The format isn't even a year old, it's never had "pillars" the way Modern had, it's identity is too similar to Modern's. Oddly enough, I think Pioneer's rolling bans would have been a good feature of the format that gives it an identity different from Modern. Maybe shift to biweekly instead of weekly, set up some really stringent rules about meta share and some other things, but the bans would be used to control power creep, open room for constant brewing, and encourage people not to play the top decks so they can avoid bans. Those railing against the rolling bans were really upsetting to me, I think they dismissed it's potential and just wanted Pioneer to be like every other eternal format.

On top of that, Pioneer doesn't have any good place to live online and that's a big hindrance to seeing how things actually are; competing with Modern on MTGO doesn't seem like a fruitful pursuit for Pioneer. Maybe if they brought it to Arena in the next year but I hope like mad that we can play paper before then.

I moved to Pioneer in hopes to get into the format quickly and avoid the Modern slide into obscurity. Many of the more sound voices still support that notion to some extent when they aren't as frustrated as everyone else about the state of eternal Magic. I still have many of my Modern cards, but I sold quite a bit of the less used stuff I had or was just not into so I may jump right back over to Modern if the format shows that it's worth my time.

Regarding Magic as a whole, I'm going to hold firm that things are fundamentally wrong in development and leave it to the State of Modern thread to continually hash out. I've tried throwing my hat in a few times but I don't really articulate as well as some of them do and I have never followed it as closely. I've been an advocate for stronger removal, significant bans, and weaker threats for quite awhile, so I may not be the best person to try to convince the format(s) are okay where they are.

I'm not ready to call for the doom of Magic, but my desire to remain in this game is heavily linked to high levels of freedom in the format I'm playing. Generally, that means I'd like to see as small a gap as possible between tier 1 and tier 2. I don't think that's the case in Pioneer because even after you get past the Lurrus and Yorion lists, there are three combo decks that keep out a ton of the fun and interesting things you could be doing.

Lowkey, lol, I'm glad this thread is semi dead. It's a nice sidebar to the Modern thread since their conversation has shifted to Magic as a whole.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I think you and I should just agree to disagree about the Modern thread.

What would your list of ban criteria be?
The way I'm reading the data you posted and assuming it's what you consider credible, I would be banning some more than just Lurrus. Maybe not immediately, but there would be more on my list to watch after I decide what my first move is.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Ya, I had hoped Yorion would catch some flak there. I agree.

After those two, I'd probably wait a little bit and reconsider Fires of Invention; the card doesn't seem to have a middle ground for power, it either breaks something or is a non-factor. Cards like that strike me as good ban targets because of their high volatility. You know? It's so widely applicable with such little actual restraint that anything could break it, so why risk it?

Lukka strikes me as similar to Fires but I don't feel I have a complete thought on him yet. The basics of what I see with him is that we've already taken the extreme and cut all creatures in order to cheat out the most damaging thing we can. Just happens to be Agent of Treachery in this case.
Greeksis wrote:
3 years ago
The criteria would be simple:
- Extremely high win rate for a long period of time(see: past mono G devotion)
- A card being a huge unifier and being played in tremendous numbers, on multiple decks(see: yorion, lurrus)
- Turn 4 rule violator(no really example, fortunately)
Ya, I feel these. Kinda the standard for ban criteria.
What's too much though? Or do you not believe that drawing a strict line in the sand is appropriate? Is 14% acceptable? How different is 14% from 15%? Personally, I think those lines should exist. Another place I think we agree is that the length of time a deck stays overly popular matters too. Win rate certainly plays into that- I feel like I have some more things to consider in that vein.

Combo sorta bothers me, I feel like it's being designed incorrectly; take Inverter and Breach Lotus specifically. I don't feel they encourage interaction, which, in my opinion, is the purpose of combo from a design perspective. The EtB effects are only preventable by counterspells or a couple small anti-EtB creatures that Inverter already easily deals with. So Red and Green are just up a creek with no paddle? No. I don't accept that, that's not good design. That just forces them into uninteractive linear decks that always race or to completely rely on other colors.

On the other hand, I think combo should be a core archetype in the format. I think a few things don't get enough attention about the archetype though- and this is totally open discussion, I'm not the law or authority on any of this. I think the faster a combo deck is, the more fragile it should be. Ya? So if I were to design the fastest combo allowable in the format (I'm purposely abstaining from saying a turn number), I would require it to be something like Devoted Druid/Vizier of Remedies; they can be removed by all colors, they are faster than aggro, it's a game winning combo, and they have no business being in an aggro deck. All of those things need to be present to be a healthy "fastest" combo deck.

As combo gets slower, it can get more resilient. Inverter, in my opinion should never be goldfishing things faster than turn 6. Why? Because those EtB effects can't be hindered, denied, or disrupted by two entire colors. So when the deck gets more resilient, other strategies need to be allowed to affect it more by slowing it down and losing its edge on aggro. However, that resiliency should gain some edge on control because removal is not effective. Give and take.

I wouldn't dare claim that's a perfect picture; there will always be more granular interplay, there will always be that bell curve of win rate percentages, there will always be new printings that tip the balance a bit, etc. I just think that archetypes should have a purpose in a meta and many of them do have a natural purpose. I sorta see Combo, Aggro, and Control as that core with other things occasionally making an appearance.
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I view "midrange" as "aggro that interacts". I know there are those that say a format is healthy if it has a few present midrange decks, so me having not mentioned it is sort of a misunderstanding. If aggro is properly incentivized to adapt to Combo and Control decks in the meta it will become "midrange". I tend to just shortcut midrange to "aggro that interacts" to just "aggro".

It's effectively the same idea just stated in reverse. My understanding of their statements is that they want to start at midrange and build the meta out from it, but I want to start with aggro decks and have them naturally adjust into midrange. I feel this way because answers are tailored to threats, this is not often reversed else we'd see much more Boggles Modern. If the transition from aggro to midrange happens naturally, it's a clear indication that interaction with the opponent's strategy does matter.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Greeksis wrote:
3 years ago
I mean, I get it about Fires, but Yorion hits the deck hard time, especially in Pioneer, you remember how mediocre to bad it was pre-Lukka, pre-Yorion. I think it's possible that with no Yorion, the deck will be at most tier 2, maybe worse.

Agent is just one payoff, and quite honestly, isn't he a mediocre to bad payoff, compared to what modern had all along?
This is why I feel odd talking about the format right now, I haven't played since quarentine and I forget the specifics about many deck lists. Like Yorion is part of Lukka Fires. Also, I semi cover myself by saying I'd wait to see where it shakes out before going after Fires, lol.

Comparing Agent to Modern has no bearing on what we do here, so it's pretty irrelevant. I point out Agent because it's just a cop out for doing something interesting. It's just your best card with a 2/3 stapled to it, wow. There's no deck building decisions; it's just the best haymaker x4, done.

I'm a huge fan of Oracle, but generally I act like it doesn't have "win the game" written on it so it tends to escape my thoughts- lol, even when talking about Inverter. I typically use it as super scry. Without that one dumb line though, we'd have avoided this weird combo situation. You know what? Even "equal to" could be removed and we'd weaken those two decks quite a bit because then they'd need to have something on the board when the ability resolves.

I know you would rather focus on the individual cards but I would still venture that Companion itself is a design mistake. I do think we can at least agree that Oracle was a design mistake though.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I don't think Pioneer is fine. Answers are too weak compared to threats. I think the format needs both bannings and printings to fix the issue, but fundamentally WotC needs to get their heads out of the sand.

I don't really want to compare Modern to Pioneer, the continual cross format jockeying for who is better or worse is just building tensions in some people who really are just acknowledging that Magic as a whole is having issues and it affects all of the formats. Much like how you think talking about Twin or "bashing WotC" is toxic, many others think ignoring the incredible issues with R&D is toxic. From their point of view, you're ignoring the forest for the trees.

At what point would you start calling out WotC for bad R&D practices? Seriously, at what point do you feel R&D has gone to far?

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I'm going to try to keep the trees and forest analogy.
You mentioned 7 cards (of 10) that are currently legal but should be banned. They "are 100% too much" by your words. So we agree that Pioneer is on fire, awesome. You mention that other formats are also on fire; again, we agree.

The forest is on fire.

Instead of talking about how one tree is less on fire than another tree, we should just try to save the all the trees. That solution is probably to slay the dragon (WotC) that keeps starting fires.

R&D being messed up is directly related to every format being on fire. While everyone is discussing how to address the multi format problems, you are busy interjecting with why people should play in one burning format opposed to another burning format. We want zero fires, we do not want to play in a smaller fire.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Okay... I'm going back to not saying anything. Have a nice day.

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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 3 years ago

A friend of mine suggested adding a 2 Mana tax to casting a Companion from outside the game. Lurrus is way less broken at 5 Mana and that might prevent a ban being needed in Modern, which is looking increasingly certain. Lurrus would also still be perfectly fine in Standard at 5cmc since the decks that play him are all casting him on turns 6+ usually anyway.

Meanwhile, Yorion is probably still playable at 7cmc, even if it is a significant nerf.

I suspect they'll ban Agent before anything else from Lukka Fires, since we're close to that card rotating. The issue is that we all know banning the pay off never works. We saw that with Aetherworks Marvel and Emrakul, and we're going to see it again here. Not sure what would be slotted in to replace Agent, but there's plenty of choices.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I'm super interested to see how Baneslayer Angel and Azusa, Lost but Seeking impact the format. Could there be some split between BSA and Lyra Dawnbringer ? what decks want azusa if any?

I'm not sure if Containment Priest will have any affect on the format

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

M21 in general seems to be an increase to the power level of answers which spells good news for all formats but especially Pioneer, as essentially we're getting answers for problems that do not yet exist, signaling a dramatic shift into the relative level of answers in the format

we're already in overkill range in terms of GY hate (including free hosers like LoV or Tormod's) while we keep getting more in a format that doesn't even have the dredge keyword legal, so yeah, the priest won't do much, just another option for W decks which is cool

other than that the companion nerf seems to have made a good impact on the format so far: Yorion remains but at a much lower meta share and mostly to assist Esper control (superfriends + etb enchancements) and Jeskai Fires, Lurrus is mostly an afterthough in some mono red/boros aggro and i have yet to see any other companion making any result

overall things are only improving for the format

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

Cyanu wrote:
3 years ago
M21 in general seems to be an increase to the power level of answers
I think some people, myself included, will roll their eyes a bit at this statement and say that Containment Priest and Runed Halo aren't really "answers" they are Prison cards and sideboard queens (hate cards). They're right up there with GY hate as being a huge signal that something else is dominating the format if they see play in game one.

I would look to Eliminate as an example of an answer. While I'm happy to see it, I don't think it really changes the power struggle between answers and threats. The two mana it costs will likely still be enough tempo loss to negate the gain of hitting most worthwhile 3cmc cards and anything cheaper than that is only getting worse value. This is a pretty common trend that isn't bad but is far larger a gap than I think most people are willing to admit. Personally, I'd like that gap to be smaller.

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

well when some people say something they mean something else, for example answer=counterspell...

in general when answers are pushed too far in power they tend to become what you described as 'prison cards': they answer not only the existing 'problem' but the future ones too, ofc those answers are usually too narrow to compensate for their killing power

for example the priest could have it's effect as an etb untill eot, which would fit your definition of an answer, instead it's even higher power level than that, making it a persistent effect, i have little interest in semantics about the limits of asnwer to prison axis myself though

regardless for me all answers are welcome and i was refering to a generic trend in recent prints for an increase to the power level of answers and not just the priest in specific

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

That's fair. Generally speaking, you're right, I define answers as non-persistent and responsive. Loosely a "one question, one answer" mentality.

The main issue I take is not that answers (my definition) are too weak, it's that threats are too strong/efficient. You can only make things so cheap and answers have to be cheaper than threats to have any chance of making a difference. To fix that we bleed into that persistent category of Prison effects which is why I differentiate between them; to me it's a fundamental change.

I don't blame you for not wanting to get into it though, my opinions tend to end in desires for bans even when I try to avoid it.

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

imo the key word here is synergy: threats synergize and their sum is greater than their parts

looking at pioneer's threats individually, in a hypothetical midrange shell, most of them are almost cute when compared to things like TS which is a monster answer in the format's context (and ironically used to force proactive gameplans since the format's inception - and no i'm not advocating for a ban, i'm just making a point)

and the point is that things are much more complicated than 'print better answers', the've put themselves into a pretty tough spot with all the failures and mistakes of the last 2 years, just printing a buch of powerful removals is not going to fix this (and Pioneer is still on the brighter side compared to the mess of other formats)

for example as Pioneer is now, would we want a VERY pushed removal spell, a multi-format allstar, in black? would a doomblade on steroids help or hinder the health of the format? my vote is the latter: the format is enough combo centric as it is, and more/better removal would only encourage people to play more combo to bypass it, not to mention it slots straight into inverter, besides Push is another crazy card relative to the rest of the format, people are still playing 4drops with no etb, push wrecks them

that said having removal similar to what we have hitting walkers is a great idea, which is one of the things they seem to be consistenly doing lately and i approve

a better generic 2cmc counter would be a good addition to fight off the combo decks

now for a better W removal, that's complicated af, i just don't know if it would help or hinder the format,i only know that PtE would not be a good reprint for many reasons - IMO

finally if we reach the point of us needing 0cmc spells to not die turns 1-3 i'm out of the format, that's a big red line for me, if i was cool with that i'd just play Legacy instead

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Post by Arkmer » 3 years ago

I like the way you're talking. I think we agree pretty well. I'd love to see the rise in relevance of 2cmc multi-color (or double pip mono-color) removal. Black can have their seat on high with Push, that's sorta their thing. I'd love to see a 2cmc "Counter target Creature or Planeswalker spell", very simple, very necessary.

I still have issues with Inverter though. I totally agree that better removal just slots into it. I don't think the deck is healthy for the format given how difficult it is to interact with and it's ability to use Thoughtseize (I am also not looking to ban TS). I think the best thing to fight the deck with is itself and I think we can agree that that's a problem.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I played against more of a vampires build of mono black 2 matches in a row on MTGO today. is there any advantage to that build over traditional mono black aggro?

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Now that companions are nerfed, I feel like playing magic again. Containment priest is going to do work, for me at least in UW control shells. I think I can make use of Nine Livessomewhere, but probably only has limited applications in Pioneer.

Smother gets a really nice upgrade in Eliminate [/card]. It hits a lot of targets and probably will replace a copy or two of Fatal Push in most lists. Selfless Savior [/card] is neat, but not sure where it can work. I doubt many others are interested in Riddleform [/card] but I enjoy non creature decks and I have used this card before in Modern. Anyway it's nice to be able to play magicc again. I hated companions and Im not a huge fan of the companions 2.0 either but its better than not being able to play MTG.

EDIT: to the mods I notice using the little card icon to add the card tags now adds extra [/card] AFTER you submit. Weird bug but I left the results in place so yall can see.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

Containment Priest is an interesting add to the format for sure. I don't know how relevant it is in pioneer right now but it's a good safety valve almost.

Selfless Savior is interesting with Lurrus too

is Yorion playable in UW control or is that not an option? I saw a few esper lists, is that the new go to control deck in pioneer?

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
Containment Priest is an interesting add to the format for sure. I don't know how relevant it is in pioneer right now but it's a good safety valve almost.

Selfless Savior is interesting with Lurrus too

is Yorion playable in UW control or is that not an option? I saw a few esper lists, is that the new go to control deck in pioneer?
Priest stops all the stupid CoCo and graveyard critters. No longer will UW fear green mages casting CoCo at the end of turn.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

robertleva wrote:
3 years ago
motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
Containment Priest is an interesting add to the format for sure. I don't know how relevant it is in pioneer right now but it's a good safety valve almost.

Selfless Savior is interesting with Lurrus too

is Yorion playable in UW control or is that not an option? I saw a few esper lists, is that the new go to control deck in pioneer?
Priest stops all the stupid CoCo and graveyard critters. No longer will UW fear green mages casting CoCo at the end of turn.
I completely forgot about that interaction but that makes me even more excited for the Containment Priest reprint adding it to the format now. I guess there is also that "dredge" deck in pioneer as well and I saw a rally deck do well a Lotus Box pioneer event

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

Priest is indeed a good addition here. I only now realized it stops Coco as well.
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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

Two decks I am messing with right now are Mono White Devotion and UW control. Both use Heliod combo. I use containment priest in both sideboards. Runed Halo in mono white has been great. In general the mono white list has been performing very well. I think white finally has all the pieces it needs to be a fully fledged control color on its own in Pioneer.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

UW control seemed reasonable a few months ago but seems to have fallen off. I've always liked the deck, Containment Priest seems like a great add though

I wanna try Yorion in the deck though

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