[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I feel very much the opposite. I think the ban policy at the beginning was what brought players in my area to play. Yes, we totally lost the competitive crowd for awhile but we had like 30 players a week with nearly all unique decks and that's what made Pioneer fun. You're totally right to say a ton of things went sideways really fast for Pioneer, not being on Arena and only MTGO, covid, Theros broke the format, and they stopped banning things almost all at the same time. I think had they kept banning things regularly and with the same standards for doing so people would have come back to Pioneer faster because it would have been fixed before paper shut down and we'd see that the format was being managed. Many of us just feel that they gave us a fun new format and then just ditched all responsibility for it, that's really what killed confidence.

If I were to run the format, I'd probably do a ban announcement every 2 weeks instead of every week. It was just a bit too fast. But that announcement isn't a forced ban- I say again, they do not have to ban something just because they have an announcement (reddit seems to not understand this so I've had to work it into my elevator pitch), it's just an update on the state of the format even if that means "things are fine, no change" or "we see this deck pulling ahead, we are not banning anything at this time, but we are aware of a growing trend". At least it means "we see you and we're still engaged in the format". It would give them an opportunity to actually manage a format with open data instead of all this hiding data BS they've been doing. I'd probably also just set some clear standards for when things get banned and be open and clear about them, just like Modern once was until that went away without any regard. Then if people have their deck banned they can see it coming from a mile away, know why, and have all the numbers. If they choose not to do anything about it then that's on them. And when a deck starts eating too much of the format, things are effectively banned anyway but no one is willing to accept that the decks people invested in are now outclassed and worthless too. My goal would be to keep tier two pretty close to tier one in power, that's basically it; you can't make every card playable, you can't even make most cards playable, but you can definitely make tier 2 playable.

Had they continued managing the format we'd never have suffered the combo dominance we did for so long. They literally just plugged their ears and ignored the format. THAT is what killed things for so many of us. It made the format just look like a cash grab then an abandonment. So many people think bans kill a format but when a format actually dies no one seems to realize it was because of a lack of bans. Things started to look decent after they finally removed all the combo decks but the player base was already gone and we were also deep in covid. If Pioneer is to come back, I think many players would ask for an actual apology from WotC and an announcement saying they're going back to their original policy (or near) of regular B&R announcements. It would be a slow return but it would probably revive the format.

As far as unbans are concerned, I think they're warranted. I think that's one of the things they can play with more if they have announcements every 2 weeks. It's suddenly easier to unban something and say it's on probation until X date then we'll have a decision about it returning to the field like any other card. You know, communicate with players so we have an understanding of what is going on. The way things are now, if a deck gets too powerful we just guess and it feels horrible, then it suddenly gets banned or we keep holding our breath and feeling bad not knowing what to expect. But it's crazy how things get banned and players rush back in to play the decks they already have and like playing.

I guess, in short, I think moving back to a twice a month B&R is what would make Pioneer a more unique format and better than it's current state.

Tough thing too is that Modern is solid right now so no one wants to think about Pioneer. Might be a good time to make some policy changes and get some early adopters, but overall I think Pioneer is dead at least for a year or two.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I do agree that the reluctance to ban the combo decks for so long probably did kill interest in the format a lot faster than the weekly bans did. Just by the time they did finally make the bans, it was probably way too late to help. I just noticed some people in my area didn't wanna touch the format for a while early on because the bans were so frequent.

I don't even know what needs to be done to save the format or how to approach beginning how to save the format. Which is a shame because I feel pioneer is a great format

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

Ya, it's a tough problem to solve. I'm not even 100% certain my idea would fix things, I just think it's a unique thing that the format had that set it apart from Modern.

I had a ton of fun playing it pre-Theros. Even when they were banning things regularly, I just kept my decks obscure- which is why it was fun. Kefnet Tribal was such a ridiculous concept that it was never getting banned.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I played UW control, which was a pretty solid choice for a while and only had Teferi, Time Raveler banned for good reason. I had inverter built because while I thought it might get banned eventually I just had most of it by chance.

Maybe one option to revive pioneer is make it a common format you can play in whatever the equivalent to PTQs are post covid so that people will be playing and hopefully innovating in it

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I don't even understand the state of competitive play right now. What even is the equivalent of a PTQ anymore?

I just want to go jam my "highly refined" tier 2 brews at my LGS. That's why I'm playing Disinformation Campaign in Modern with Dakkon, lol. No Pioneer yet, but I'll probably go back to some form of Kefnet nonsense. Essentially Kefnet the Mindful bounces Mystic Sanctuary and then you can just go nuts with stuff like Casualties of War.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I believe they were going to something called "WPN Qualifiers" before Covid, which seemed like they were just PPTQs that less stores could get

I don't even know if Pioneer sees enough play for there to even be an actual tier list any,more

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I think Consider is great, obviously, but...

I understand it's not evergreen, but I really feel Consider is a missed opportunity to have done "Surveil 1, then draw a card". It's just so much more succinct and it's literally the mechanic save for the name. I often wish they'd just breach these instances of "the ability in spirit" and just use the keyword, especially when the reminder text is so short anyway. I'm obviously just playing at wanting better access Surveil mechanics like Whispering Snitch, but this could help elevate other abilities that would have been too good in their set. Consider, for example, would have been a pretty big upgrade in Guilds of Ravnica standard, but drop it in a later set where it also fits, keep the keyword, and people can now try upgraded Surveil synergy here in Pioneer. The same could be said of a bunch of other mechanics that saw similar levels of utility but weren't good enough in bigger formats. Landfall is one we see occasionally, Battalion was seen without the key word before, there's quite a few that are simple and could easily be dropped into another set with very little issue. Hell, Double Strike is more complicated than Surveil. With the printing of Consider, I think it's safe to say that there will never be a true Surveil Opt.

I just think it's frustrating. Surveil may not even be playable as an overall strategy with Consider, but it would be an upgrade to a currently unplayable thought.

Thank you, I just needed to vent a little while my Disinformation Campaigns sit in my box. I tried them with Dakkon in Modern but they just weren't useful in any matchups, Modern is too fast and Esper control just has everything already.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

yeah Consider not having surveil seems pretty weird but the card seems like it could be pretty interesting in multiple formats. I kind of like it with delirium cards, it's just a shame there aren't really any playable delirium cards in pioneer

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

Surprising lack of comment on the ban here

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I feel like there's an overall lack of interest in the format still. I think it will probably prove to be a good ban in a few years, as Lurrus really makes them think about the 2cmc and less permanents they print

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Post by Androk » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
Surprising lack of comment on the ban here
I'm not a fan of it. I play Pioneer on a weekly basis, and I never thought Lurrus decks felt particularly oppressive in the format. I think Lurrus actually helped the format feel more diverse, incentivizing aggro builds that have all vanished in the past few weeks since the ban.

Of course, I am sure more aggro builds will come about in the future, and that's the key word here...the future. They could have banned Lurrus at any time...I don't follow Modern much, so if banning Lurrus there was necessary right now, then it was necessary right now. It was not necessary to do so right now in Pioneer. There is no reason Lurrus' presence in Pioneer should force them to reconsider which 2 CMC and less permanents they print...they could have banned Lurrus at any point that new prints pushed Lurrus too far.

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

It was clearly a valid modern target. I think with new focus on the format they took the opportunity to make sure the format is not all about companions come the pro tour, playing it safe in case it turns out the top decks are all Lurrus, which once the pros get hold of may have been the case. It is rare for them to think like that, but not without precident.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

now that we know what we know about pioneer as a pt format, I'm not surprised they banned Lurrus, as there will be more people playing the format. so people will be trying to break the format again

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

it's too good for modern, then it's too good here as well.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I feel that Deathrite Shaman , Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are all fine in pioneer but that's probably because much less options for fetches. vs modern makes them more powerful

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