Kaldheim Baseless Speculation thread.

[Krishnath]

Well, the sets for the next year or so have been revealed, so it is time for completely baseless speculation. Starting with the first set after Zen Rising, Kaldheim.

Returning Planeswalkers

I am thinking we'll continue to see an average of three planeswalkers per set, as that seems like a good number for a large set. I also think we'll see a mix of returning and new planeswalkers, so what makes sense for Kaldheim? I think we'll avoid getting *any* Gatewatch members in Kaldheim, but there will be returning planeswalkers in the set. I think that Garruk and/or Angrath makes the most sense. Garruk just seems like a natural fit for the set, while we know that Angrath has some connection to the plane. It could literally be either of the two planeswalker's home plane. Although Minotaurs aren't part of Norse lore, they feel like a natural fit for a plane based in Norse myth, other than just Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Goblins.


Returning Mechanics

There is only one mechanic that seems like a natural fit for a plane based on Scandinavia, and that is the triumphant return of Snow to standard. The mechanic got a test in Modern Horizons to great success (so successful that they had to ban a Snow card in Modern earlier this year), and Kaldheim (literally Cold Home if translated) is a perfect fit for a return. It could also mean we finally get the Centaur Omenreader future sight reprint.

I also expect a return of both Equipment and Vehicles in the set (Viking Longboat for the win), some tribal themes, and batching tech to define vikings.


Other themes and reference predictions

I expect the following tribes to make it true to the source material: Humans (obviously), Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Spirits, Elementals, Giants, and Gods. I also expect a focus on Warriors, Barbarians, and Berserkers.

The set will have a legendary squirrel.

There will be a reference to Yggdrasil.

There will be a norse style dragon/linnorm, possibly multiple, including a reference to Niddhogg.

There will be a giant bird of some sort, and at least one Elk.

Also, dogs.

There will be Draugr, they will have the Zombie subtype.

There will be a Valkyrie of some sort, possibly with the Angel subtype, alternately it will be a spirit.

[chetoos]

Stormblood Berserker is one that I'm hoping will be back. Bloodthirst on a viking plane makes sense, after all.

[ilovesaprolings]

The fun things is that, according to immersturm and skybreen, Kaldheim is primarly a snow plane, while Valla should be the viking. But i think they won't care and just mix them together.

[Krishnath]

The fun things is that, according to immersturm and skybreen, Kaldheim is primarly a snow plane, while Valla should be the viking. But i think they won't care and just mix them together.

That's the fun thing about a multiverse, multiple worlds can have similar themes. There can be two viking worlds, just like there are two heavy mana worlds (Zendikar and Shandalar respectively), and two with a heavy artifact focus (Kaladesh and Mirrodin/New Phyrexia), similar but different.

Also, Kaldheim has a name that is literally Norse, it's name translating to "Cold Home".

[Guardman]

I really can't tell you all how excited I am for Kaldheim. Norse mythology is easily my favorite mythology.

What I am almost positive will be in the set:

Snow - It would be a huge disappointment if it wasn't. Plus, as they have shown with deserts, there is a lot that can be done with subtype check (well in this case supertype, but same difference).

Legendary Squirrel - MaRo has said for a while that if we ever visit a Norse plane that he would include a legendary squirrel based on Ratatoskr.

Giants - More specifically the Jotunn (Frost Giants)... though Jotunn is such a broad term that it will probably be simplified to only giants.

Vikings - Will they be warriors? Beserkers? Both? Who knows...

Attacking/Combat mechanic - With Vikings it would be hard not to.

Valkyrie - Most likely as angels.

Probably in set:

Gods - The Norse Gods are probably either the best known or second best known pantheon in the world, so I would be surprised if they weren't in the set. The tricky thing with Norse gods though is that one they were more like extremely powerful and long-lived mortals than actual gods (a lot of them died) and there were two pantheons (Aesir and Vanir), though the two pantheons merged after the Aesir-Vanir War. Also this doesn't even include groups like the Jotunn who are just as powerful as the gods.

Legendary Monsters - A lot of these are actually Jotunn (and if we are being even more technical, children of Loki), but it would be cool to see cards based off of Jormungandr, Fenrir, and Slepnir.

Ragnarok - Because it is the defining event of the Norse Pantheon Season.

Mjolnir - One of the best known legendary weapons deserves a card.

Would be neat to see cards inspired by:

Þjalfi and Roskva - Twins who serve as Thor's servants after breaking the bones of Thor's goats and sucking out the marrow. Þjalfi in particular has a great moment in the Gylfaginning where he is tricked into racing Thought, and almost wins.

Gylfaginning - Speaking of the Gylfaginning, move over the Trials of Hercules, because the story of Thor visiting Utgarda-Loki (no relation to the other Loki) is my favorite story in any mythology.

[Krishnath]

Dwarves have been confirmed in Kaldheim (And in the D&D set.)

[ilovesaprolings]

Will there finally be some good kraken/leviathans in Kaldheim, or they will get the short straw as usual?

[SecretInfiltrator]

Planeswalker speculation: Ramaz. I don't actually care for anything else. Well, except the legendary Squirrel, but that's all but confirmed.

Vikings - Will they be warriors? Beserkers? Both? Who knows...

Party makes me guess Warriors; would be a real shame otherwise.

[Krishnath]

Planeswalker speculation: Ramaz. I don't actually care for anything else. Well, except the legendary Squirrel, but that's all but confirmed.

Vikings - Will they be warriors? Beserkers? Both? Who knows...

Party makes me guess Warriors; would be a real shame otherwise.

I am honestly thinking they'll use batching to make Warriors, Barbarians, and Berserkers count as Vikings. And I am saying this as a Scandinavian.

[Guardman]

Just a quick update from MaRo's most recent article: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-09-07

So, I put together a few weeks of meetings, and we made some MDFCs. We made a lot of MDFCs, a surprisingly large amount actually. I showed them off to Aaron, and he was able to use them to help quiet most of the skepticism. The thing that seemed to seal the deal, interestingly, was a bunch of MDFC designs I'd made years earlier (I tracked down all my old designs from our mini team)—a ten-card cycle I'd made of MDFC dual lands. The moment people saw those, they were like, "We have to make these." (Six of them appear in Zendikar Rising, with the remaining four appearing in Kaldheim.)

It appears the "Very Soon" is the very next set.

[5colorsrainbow]

So some guesses on what they could base the gods on;

W- Tyr and/or Baldr. Tyr as a war and protection god and Baldr as the god of light and purity both feel like they would be the white Kaldheim god in magic.

U- Odin. As a god of wisdom, the future and magic, would be safe to guess the blue god would be based on Odin.

B- Loki and/or Hel. As the most antagonistic god and often portrayed as a villain Loki seems like the most likely inspiration for the Kaldheim black god. Hel as a death goddess also might be possible or mixed together with Loki as she is his daughter in myths.

R- Thor.

G- Freyr and/or Freyja, The most popularly known Vanir (nature gods) in Norse myth would be the most likely for the Kaldheim green god.

[Krishnath]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

[Wallycaine]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

To be fair, they could still lean into his trickster aspects in black as well. Our most recent "trickster" type card, after all, is mono-black (Rankle, Master of Pranks), and it's important to remember that Black =/= evil. Alternately, they could go two color, with Thor taking r/g (Lightning and strength), and Loki taking over either B/R or, more likely, U/B. Odin would certainly work as a W/U god, and Freya's focus on community could become G/W. The main "hole" that leaves is B/R, which could probably go to Hel, or possibly a more minor god I'm not thinking of at the moment.

[Krishnath]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

To be fair, they could still lean into his trickster aspects in black as well. Our most recent "trickster" type card, after all, is mono-black (Rankle, Master of Pranks), and it's important to remember that Black =/= evil. Alternately, they could go two color, with Thor taking r/g (Lightning and strength), and Loki taking over either B/R or, more likely, U/B. Odin would certainly work as a W/U god, and Freya's focus on community could become G/W. The main "hole" that leaves is B/R, which could probably go to Hel, or possibly a more minor god I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Any gods they do go with (if there are gods in the set) would be new ones that combine traits from one or more of the Asgardian pantheon. WotC are deliberately chosing to create new gods/godesses based on existing ones instead of using said existing ones to avoid accidentally offending people belonging to said culture or religion the gods come from. They accidentally did that once with the planeswalker Kiora, which is why they dropped her last name (as it is a concept from Polynesian myth and deeply offensive to use in media.)
Now, I doubt that any Scandinavian would take offense to WotC using our gods, because we really have had no issue with their depiction in comics previously, so why start now? But I understand WotC's reasoning on the issue.

I hope that if we do get gods in Kaldheim that we get a cycle of duo colored ones instead of more monocolored ones.

Also, who is the best god in all of Norse myth? The answer is Ratatöskr, the Squirrel God of insulting people and running away. :laugh:

[Wallycaine]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

To be fair, they could still lean into his trickster aspects in black as well. Our most recent "trickster" type card, after all, is mono-black (Rankle, Master of Pranks), and it's important to remember that Black =/= evil. Alternately, they could go two color, with Thor taking r/g (Lightning and strength), and Loki taking over either B/R or, more likely, U/B. Odin would certainly work as a W/U god, and Freya's focus on community could become G/W. The main "hole" that leaves is B/R, which could probably go to Hel, or possibly a more minor god I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Any gods they do go with (if there are gods in the set) would be new ones that combine traits from one or more of the Asgardian pantheon. WotC are deliberately chosing to create new gods/godesses based on existing ones instead of using said existing ones to avoid accidentally offending people belonging to said culture or religion the gods come from. They accidentally did that once with the planeswalker Kiora, which is why they dropped her last name (as it is a concept from Polynesian myth and deeply offensive to use in media.)
Now, I doubt that any Scandinavian would take offense to WotC using our gods, because we really have had no issue with their depiction in comics previously, so why start now? But I understand WotC's reasoning on the issue.

I hope that if we do get gods in Kaldheim that we get a cycle of duo colored ones instead of more monocolored ones.

Also, who is the best god in all of Norse myth? The answer is Ratatöskr, the Squirrel God of insulting people and running away. :laugh:

Oh, absolutely, I was not suggesting that they would name the gods exactly Odin and Thor and the like. But just like you can point to Nylea, God of the Hunt and go "that's Artemis", or Heliod, God of the Sun and go "that's Jupiter/Zeus", I'd be surprised if they didn't make gods that heavily referenced those characters.

[Krishnath]

Oh, absolutely, I was not suggesting that they would name the gods exactly Odin and Thor and the like. But just like you can point to Nylea, God of the Hunt and go "that's Artemis", or Heliod, God of the Sun and go "that's Jupiter/Zeus", I'd be surprised if they didn't make gods that heavily referenced those characters.

Heliod is a combination of Helios and Apollo. Keranos, God of Storms is Zeus.

[5colorsrainbow]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

Yes but (as i jokey implied) red will likely be covered by Thor. Of all the Norse gods he is the mostly popular and if we see gods he'd be the biggest one (along with Odin and Loki).

On that note I could also see Loki* and Odin* switched in colors, as Odin did go to great lengths for his power and trickery can be a blue trait.

*magic characters based on them.

I'm also gonna bet on mono-colored gods since from wizards and maros comments thats the easiest to balance out and design (and most worlds use the default 5 colors to divide planes/aspects of planes) but we could see gods in different colors combos.

[5colorsrainbow]

Oh, absolutely, I was not suggesting that they would name the gods exactly Odin and Thor and the like. But just like you can point to Nylea, God of the Hunt and go "that's Artemis", or Heliod, God of the Sun and go "that's Jupiter/Zeus", I'd be surprised if they didn't make gods that heavily referenced those characters.

Heliod is a combination of Helios and Apollo. Keranos, God of Storms is Zeus.

They said outright Heliod is based on Zeus, in fact both Heliod and Keranos are a mix of Zeus and Apollo, with Heliod getting Zeus role of god of order and community, (as well as his personality being Zeus like) and Apollos sun element, while Keranos got the lighting aspect from Zeus and Apollos prophecy.

[Wallycaine]

Loki is more of a red aligned god, as he was originally depicted as a trickster god, and it was only in later stories he started to become evil, eventually culminating in him initiating Ragnarok.

The more recent Marvel comic version of him (from Kid Loki and forward) is closer to his original incarnation in the myths, while the earlier comic versions were closer to his latter mythic incarnation. The comic version from around Dark Reign and the Siege of Asgard was somewhere halfway between the two versions.

Hel is a good choice for a black aligned god, like Hades in Olympian myth, she wasn't actually evil, but just a god doing a job and doing it well. Much like Erebos in MTG. But she was very much a goddess of death, and the ruler of the underworld.

Yes but (as i jokey implied) red will likely be covered by Thor. Of all the Norse gods he is the mostly popular and if we see gods he'd be the biggest one (along with Odin and Loki).

On that note I could also see Loki* and Odin* switched in colors, as Odin did go to great lengths for his power and trickery can be a blue trait.

*magic characters based on them.

I'm also gonna bet on mono-colored gods since from wizards and maros comments thats the easiest to balance out and design (and most worlds use the default 5 colors to divide planes/aspects of planes) but we could see gods in different colors combos.

It will definitely be interesting to see how they divide it up. The biggest reason I can see them going for multiple colors is because these will overlap with Theros beyond death's gods in standard for a while, so making them multicolored allows them to avoid doubling up roles and gives them more design space. Some of that will probably also depend on what style of gods they do, since we've seen at least 4 different executions of "gods", between Theros, Amonkhet, The Scarab God and friends, and the God-Eternals. Given the point made earlier in the thread about Norse gods tending to be capable of dying, I wouldn't be surprised if they landed on a variant of the latter two, as it also helps prevent there from being too many indestructible creatures in the same standard.

[5colorsrainbow]

The flavor design of gods is traditionally "you can manifest their powers but unless you show proper worship they won't animate". The Bolas gods and the god Eternals where flavored as being more proactive (and play around with the spaces they could go unkillable creatures ), so depends on what they want to flavor them as.

Your right that Theros being around could make them do dual/tri color gods though if not a full cycle of 10 I'll be kinda sad (and I don't think they would do 10).

With MDFC I wonder if we will see the gods use them (or transform). Maybe instant or sorcery on the back thats cheaper and is flavored as that gods gift to you and on the a really high mana cost creature thats mimics the sorcery side and can only can cast if you have the right "worship".

[duducrash]

I expect legendary artifacts at mythic and overpowered baed on the Mjolnir, Járngreipr, Megingjord and Brisingamen possibly more that I don't know?

I expect Dwarves to deal with artifacts and equipment as in forgers.

I expect and hope we will have non white characters because norse mythology appeals too much to alt right/racists and they wont let they just coop their characters

[Krishnath]

I expect legendary artifacts at mythic and overpowered baed on the Mjolnir, Járngreipr, Megingjord and Brisingamen possibly more that I don't know?

I expect Dwarves to deal with artifacts and equipment as in forgers.

I expect and hope we will have non white characters because norse mythology appeals too much to alt right/racists and they wont let they just coop their characters

Dwarves are pretty much confirmed for both Kaldheim and the D&D set. When asked about it, Maro's response was basically "A Norse set without dwarves?", which is a fair point.

[duducrash]

Dwarves are pretty much confirmed for both Kaldheim and the D&D set. When asked about it, Maro's response was basically "A Norse set without dwarves?", which is a fair point.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense I think they will deal with equipments. They are known forgers in norse mythology right?

[Krishnath]

Dwarves are pretty much confirmed for both Kaldheim and the D&D set. When asked about it, Maro's response was basically "A Norse set without dwarves?", which is a fair point.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense I think they will deal with equipments. They are known forgers in norse mythology right?

Among other things, they are the ones that forged Mjölnir, and the chains that were used to bind Fenrir.

[AvalonAurora]

It might be cool if the Kaldheim gods use the current type of double-face cards. Perhaps they could be a seemingly regular creature if played on the front side, not even legendary, but under special conditions (additions to the cost, as in 'you can't cast unless x') you can instead play their back side, and each one has different conditions. For instance, one might be concerned with the underworld, and be playable if the opponent takes something out of a graveyard since your last turn, in addition to a higher casting cost than it's 'mortal' side. Kind of like things like legends of Odin going around in disguise and punishing or rewarding people based on their hospitality.

I also hope we get a chariot pulled by cats, like Freya has, in some form.

Might be nice to get perhaps a mix of creature types based on classes including the following: Warrior, Pirate, Berserker, Artificer, Barbarian, Wizard, Cleric, and Shaman.

I wonder if we'll see Ramaz get a card perhaps freaking out at Bolas being gone or trying a plan left to him by Bolas to resurrect Bolas that will fail and then freaking out.

Might be interesting to have Valkyries be angels, but not stuck mostly in white, thanks to stories about their love tying tying them to red some, or their aspects as picking the dead or whatnot tying them to black some, and we could have perhaps many different colored Warrior Angel creatures as Valkyries. Maybe even one if every color, or have the signpost uncommons all be 2 color Valkyries that 'guide' or 'choose' the player and synergize with whatever that color pair is doing in the set.

I'd also love to see an interpretation of Yggdrasil the world tree, one bigger than Ravnica's Vitu-Ghazi.